CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

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Gudnib
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:03 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:50 am
As if accounting procedures and high finance aren't dull enough Gudnib, repetition doesn't make it any more interesting.

What ground breaking, earth shattering info has all your research come up with? Allardyce indulges in a bit of hyperbole, Marc Iles once made an error, companies shift money around. Feckin riveting stuff.

For a bloke who must be (at least) in your late 70s, haven't you got anything more worthwhile to do? A shed you could potter in, for example?
Its not everybody's cup of tea H.
How about a bit of music to cheer you up?
I've chosen Solomon Burke for you. Honey Where's the Money Gone. Hope you like It.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcls6kIiPL4

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:36 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:42 pm
I don't know if any of you have seen some of his previous work but David Squires take on Swindons financial situation prompted a giggle or two amongst the doom

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng ... indon-town
You wouldn't be one of those Guardianistas by any chance would you, H?

You know the sort. The ones that can be Conned into believing that interest, that was never likely to be paid, added to a debt that was never likely to be repaid was 'handy' for Eddie Davies. Heaven help us.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Mar » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:54 am

Gudnib wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:39 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:26 pm
They "sold" it with KA's consent. He's on about the fee that tosser was charging potential buyers to look at the books. And the implication being that without Shazza agreeing to the same (good luck) no-one is getting anything beyond what CH make available.
He's on about something completely different. Nothing to do with FV accounts at all. Pleased we've got that cleared up. He's on about the fee that's charged to prevent timewasters and tyre kickers wasting the club's time and money. I've got it but its nowt to do with the present situation.
Thanks Prufrock that was EXACTLY what I was on about.

It was an example of being able to look at the financial accounts that was available at the time. That may or may not be available now. Either way in order to get the account info you go through the club.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:26 am

A couple of years ago, someone asked Terrence Rigby what the club spent its income on. The ST's grand fromage said he didn't know, you'd have to draw your own conclusions.

You'd have to draw your own conclusions? I'm not a big fan of drawing conclusions without knowing the facts but it did cross my mind that if Mr Rigby had a scooby it was well hidden.

I wonder if the ST has a scooby on what's included in the £7.3m 'administration costs' and what's included in the £8.1m expended on intellectual property. i.e where the moneys gone. Maybe they could tell us.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by dave the minion » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:45 pm

At the risk of giving you a further platform to spout off Gudnib, can I ask why you are so skeptical of some of the numbers in the first place??
As such an experienced and seasoned accountant, you'll no doubt have noticed that the accounts were given a clean audit report by the auditors, and in providing this opinion all the usual fraud and other checks would have had to be done by said auditors. I know this is not an exact science and it doesn't answer your question as to what the amounts were spent on, but it should point to the fact that whatever the amounts were, they have been checked back to source documentation and deemed proper business expenses.

Furthermore, in the Group accounts the intellectual property acquired in the year was £10,000,001 (although cash out £8.1m as you suggest). Now, without finding a source in the club prepared to divulge exactly what this was, its fair to say that for the auditors to sign off on the accounts then the expenditure would have had to meet the recognition criteria in the accounting standards, and given the takeover and tumultuous year that the accounts cover, it could be any number of things connected to either the group restructuring, image rights, naming rights blah blah blah - I don't understand the cynicism, unless you know something we don't??

As for the "administration costs" of £7.3m, lets just be clear - and it maybe only semantics - but this is not related to the administration process we went through, but is actually "administrative costs" - ie running costs. We don't see the detail in the accounts, but as an accountant you will know that this is just the day to day operating costs of the group. I don't know how football clubs split their costs between cost of sales and admin costs, but the £7.3m could include all wages and salary costs (maybe even the players, hotel staff etc, unless this is in cost of sales), legal fees, some utilities, 700k of intangibles amortisation etc etc etc. Again, I'm sure the auditors have tested these costs in forming their opinion.

What do you think these costs might include? Why do you think its anything other than normal day to day operating costs incurred in the normal course of business???

Also, don't get the reference to the ST - what makes you think they're involved in some sort of scandal.....
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by knobpolisher » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:52 pm

Better get the spouting platform polished and ready.
People haven't got a good word for you, but i have T**T.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:59 pm

knobpolisher wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:52 pm
Better get the spouting platform polished and ready.
:lol:

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:38 pm

dave the minion wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:45 pm
At the risk of giving you a further platform to spout off Gudnib, can I ask why you are so skeptical of some of the numbers in the first place??
As such an experienced and seasoned accountant, you'll no doubt have noticed that the accounts were given a clean audit report by the auditors, and in providing this opinion all the usual fraud and other checks would have had to be done by said auditors. I know this is not an exact science and it doesn't answer your question as to what the amounts were spent on, but it should point to the fact that whatever the amounts were, they have been checked back to source documentation and deemed proper business expenses.

Furthermore, in the Group accounts the intellectual property acquired in the year was £10,000,001 (although cash out £8.1m as you suggest). Now, without finding a source in the club prepared to divulge exactly what this was, its fair to say that for the auditors to sign off on the accounts then the expenditure would have had to meet the recognition criteria in the accounting standards, and given the takeover and tumultuous year that the accounts cover, it could be any number of things connected to either the group restructuring, image rights, naming rights blah blah blah - I don't understand the cynicism, unless you know something we don't??

As for the "administration costs" of £7.3m, lets just be clear - and it maybe only semantics - but this is not related to the administration process we went through, but is actually "administrative costs" - ie running costs. We don't see the detail in the accounts, but as an accountant you will know that this is just the day to day operating costs of the group. I don't know how football clubs split their costs between cost of sales and admin costs, but the £7.3m could include all wages and salary costs (maybe even the players, hotel staff etc, unless this is in cost of sales), legal fees, some utilities, 700k of intangibles amortisation etc etc etc. Again, I'm sure the auditors have tested these costs in forming their opinion.

What do you think these costs might include? Why do you think its anything other than normal day to day operating costs incurred in the normal course of business???

Also, don't get the reference to the ST - what makes you think they're involved in some sort of scandal.....
Its so kind of you to explain to me what 'administrative costs' in company accounts are. Having spent the last half a century in the potting shed examining my oversized legumes I wouldn't have had a scooby doo otherwise. And so to bed. Sufficient unto the day, as they say.
Last edited by Gudnib on Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:38 am

Bolton Bonce is one of the most prolific contributors to the Bolton Nuts forum. He's an amusing and engaging chap but one of his principle beliefs is that you cannot believe anything you read in accounts and that you couldn't trust any accountant as far as you could throw them.

Like Royal Cheltenham Spa on Robins Nest, Bonce is a Guardian reader. RCS also thinks that 'dodgy accounting' is 'par for the course' in 'big business'. His comments were in reference to (or a defence of) the £11million 'black hole' discovered in the audited accounts of the Ecotricity Group, owned by Dale Vince chairman of Forest Green Rovers. FGR has accumulated losses of £12.7m which would be a great deal more without the £millions handed to it by Vince's Ecotricity Group in shirt sponsorship and the like.

It wouldn't be too bad if Ecotricity could afford it but it has run up losses of £27.6 million over the last ten years but that hasn't stopped Mr Vince drawing out £millions in interest free loans and then making them disappear with financial conjuring tricks worth £10million in total. There's still two million quid owed by Vince to Ecotricity.

Ownership of FGR has recently been shifted to the Green Britain Group for some reason but FGR showed a profit last year with a helping hand from Auntie Sharon, COVID grants and a whopping £3.2million 'commercial' income.

But what about the Wanderers accounts, anything wrong there? Not much that I've noticed apart from some debateable descriptions of transactions involving Messrs Holdsworth and Anderson at the time when they were in dispute and had to agree on a form of wording. There was also, of course, the £525K consultancy fee to Inner Circle Sports and Media. No money ever reached ICSM possibly because it was simply a 'book entry' to avoid the corporation tax that would have become payable on any payments for shares to Dean Holdsworth, Sports Shield BWFC Ltd or the liquidator of Sports Shield BWFC.

I have no reason to criticise the present or past auditors of the Wanderers. They've done a good job from what I've seen so far.

I'll save any comments on the £7.3m, the £8.1m and the debt levels until I have looked into them all a bit more.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:37 am

Silly me. I forgot to mention Derby County who have recently been told to re-do three years audited accounts.

https://www.efl.com/news/2021/july/efl- ... -sanction/

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:51 am

I bet you keep a little list, probably in a spreadsheet, with conditional formatting against forum posters names who you've bored the tits off. Hope I've made it, up there with Biggish Dave and Bolton Bonce. Why are we (or am I) supposed to care about what FGR/Dale Vince/Derby are doing, particularly?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:55 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:51 am
I bet you keep a little list, probably in a spreadsheet, with conditional formatting against forum posters names who you've bored the tits off. Hope I've made it, up there with Biggish Dave and Bolton Bonce. Why are we (or am I) supposed to care about what FGR/Dale Vince/Derby are doing, particularly?
I suspect he needs a spreadsheet to keep track of his own names. Seems to be on every football forum there is....

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:04 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:51 am
I bet you keep a little list, probably in a spreadsheet, with conditional formatting against forum posters names who you've bored the tits off. Hope I've made it, up there with Biggish Dave and Bolton Bonce. Why are we (or am I) supposed to care about what FGR/Dale Vince/Derby are doing, particularly?
Why do you think I should care about what you think (or don't think to be more apposite)?
Actually I have concluded that you are more small-minded than I had previously imagined. My mistake.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by dave the minion » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:14 am

Gudnib, are you the same chap who got the WanderersWays (i think?) forum closed down when the takeover was being discussed?
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:58 am

Gudnib wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:04 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:51 am
I bet you keep a little list, probably in a spreadsheet, with conditional formatting against forum posters names who you've bored the tits off. Hope I've made it, up there with Biggish Dave and Bolton Bonce. Why are we (or am I) supposed to care about what FGR/Dale Vince/Derby are doing, particularly?
Why do you think I should care about what you think (or don't think to be more apposite)?
Actually I have concluded that you are more small-minded than I had previously imagined. My mistake.
I don't recall saying or even suggesting you should care about what I think. I asked why I should care about what's happening with FGR/Dale Vince and Derby. I was assuming you were literate. My mistake.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by dave the minion » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:06 am

Gudnib wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:38 am
Bolton Bonce is one of the most prolific contributors to the Bolton Nuts forum. He's an amusing and engaging chap but one of his principle beliefs is that you cannot believe anything you read in accounts and that you couldn't trust any accountant as far as you could throw them.

Like Royal Cheltenham Spa on Robins Nest, Bonce is a Guardian reader. RCS also thinks that 'dodgy accounting' is 'par for the course' in 'big business'. His comments were in reference to (or a defence of) the £11million 'black hole' discovered in the audited accounts of the Ecotricity Group, owned by Dale Vince chairman of Forest Green Rovers. FGR has accumulated losses of £12.7m which would be a great deal more without the £millions handed to it by Vince's Ecotricity Group in shirt sponsorship and the like.

It wouldn't be too bad if Ecotricity could afford it but it has run up losses of £27.6 million over the last ten years but that hasn't stopped Mr Vince drawing out £millions in interest free loans and then making them disappear with financial conjuring tricks worth £10million in total. There's still two million quid owed by Vince to Ecotricity.

Ownership of FGR has recently been shifted to the Green Britain Group for some reason but FGR showed a profit last year with a helping hand from Auntie Sharon, COVID grants and a whopping £3.2million 'commercial' income.

But what about the Wanderers accounts, anything wrong there? Not much that I've noticed apart from some debateable descriptions of transactions involving Messrs Holdsworth and Anderson at the time when they were in dispute and had to agree on a form of wording. There was also, of course, the £525K consultancy fee to Inner Circle Sports and Media. No money ever reached ICSM possibly because it was simply a 'book entry' to avoid the corporation tax that would have become payable on any payments for shares to Dean Holdsworth, Sports Shield BWFC Ltd or the liquidator of Sports Shield BWFC.

I have no reason to criticise the present or past auditors of the Wanderers. They've done a good job from what I've seen so far.

I'll save any comments on the £7.3m, the £8.1m and the debt levels until I have looked into them all a bit more.
So, to summarise:
You've come on here and insinuated there are holes in and questions about the numbers presented in the BWFC accounts. You've offered nothing in the way of evidence that anything is wrong. You've then thrown the names of 2 or 3 internet forum keyboard warriors at us who have a beef about other clubs' accounts. Finally, you've then suggested that the Bolton accounts always seem to have been dealt with properly by the auditors (which, incidentally, I should thank you for, as I myself once was heavily involved in the audit of Burnden Leisure Ltd many moons ago....).
What a strange character you appear to be...........
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:08 am

dave the minion wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:14 am
Gudnib, are you the same chap who got the WanderersWays (i think?) forum closed down when the takeover was being discussed?
You think, do you Dave? Go on I'll believe you but are you sure it's not fantasising?
I don't agree with Bonce but I do know that there are sometimes errors and omissions in accounts and they aren't always accidental.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:19 am

dave the minion wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:06 am
Gudnib wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:38 am
Bolton Bonce is one of the most prolific contributors to the Bolton Nuts forum. He's an amusing and engaging chap but one of his principle beliefs is that you cannot believe anything you read in accounts and that you couldn't trust any accountant as far as you could throw them.

Like Royal Cheltenham Spa on Robins Nest, Bonce is a Guardian reader. RCS also thinks that 'dodgy accounting' is 'par for the course' in 'big business'. His comments were in reference to (or a defence of) the £11million 'black hole' discovered in the audited accounts of the Ecotricity Group, owned by Dale Vince chairman of Forest Green Rovers. FGR has accumulated losses of £12.7m which would be a great deal more without the £millions handed to it by Vince's Ecotricity Group in shirt sponsorship and the like.

It wouldn't be too bad if Ecotricity could afford it but it has run up losses of £27.6 million over the last ten years but that hasn't stopped Mr Vince drawing out £millions in interest free loans and then making them disappear with financial conjuring tricks worth £10million in total. There's still two million quid owed by Vince to Ecotricity.

Ownership of FGR has recently been shifted to the Green Britain Group for some reason but FGR showed a profit last year with a helping hand from Auntie Sharon, COVID grants and a whopping £3.2million 'commercial' income.

But what about the Wanderers accounts, anything wrong there? Not much that I've noticed apart from some debateable descriptions of transactions involving Messrs Holdsworth and Anderson at the time when they were in dispute and had to agree on a form of wording. There was also, of course, the £525K consultancy fee to Inner Circle Sports and Media. No money ever reached ICSM possibly because it was simply a 'book entry' to avoid the corporation tax that would have become payable on any payments for shares to Dean Holdsworth, Sports Shield BWFC Ltd or the liquidator of Sports Shield BWFC.

I have no reason to criticise the present or past auditors of the Wanderers. They've done a good job from what I've seen so far.

I'll save any comments on the £7.3m, the £8.1m and the debt levels until I have looked into them all a bit more.
So, to summarise:
You've come on here and insinuated there are holes in and questions about the numbers presented in the BWFC accounts. You've offered nothing in the way of evidence that anything is wrong. You've then thrown the names of 2 or 3 internet forum keyboard warriors at us who have a beef about other clubs' accounts. Finally, you've then suggested that the Bolton accounts always seem to have been dealt with properly by the auditors (which, incidentally, I should thank you for, as I myself once was heavily involved in the audit of Burnden Leisure Ltd many moons ago....).
What a strange character you appear to be...........
Don't be daft. I've insinuated nothing of the kind but I am quite interested in exactly what's in the £8.1million because that's a lot of money, isn't it?
And £7.3m on running costs? That's a lot of money too especially for a club in the lower reaches of the EFL. How many other clubs do you know of in Leagues 1 and 2 that are incurring running costs at that level?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:02 pm

If you want to make yourself useful, Dave, might I suggest you look at the P&Ls of FVWL Football Ltd and FVWL Hotel Ltd and explain to me why, when these are aggregated, they don't agree with the consolidated accounts of Football Ventures Whites Ltd.

Its many moons since I prepared consolidated accounts and I am a bit long in the tooth, so maybe there's something I haven't grasped.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by dave the minion » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Ah, thanks for your not-in-any-way-condescending advice. I was wondering what to do with my day, so thanks for the offer.

I am however intrigued by your question. Intrigued, and surprised quite frankly, as for someone with 50 years of accountancy experience I would have thought you could answer this yourself, given that it took me 5 mins during a work conference call...

Answer to your question is that they do add up. Simples.

There are 5 subsidiaries plus the parent company in the group (note 13). 3 of those subsids on companies house file micro entity accounts with no P&L activity in the period. 2 of them, FVWL Football and FVWL Hotel make up virtually all of the numbers. Add them together, plus of course the parent FVWL company P&L (not disclosed in the accounts, but the retained profit can be seen in the changes in equity note, and with some clever jiggery-pokery we can deduce this is driven by administrative costs), then you get the group P&L, subject of course to eliminating a small amount of intra-group trading between the entities which strips out 200k from turnover & COS and a tiny bit in admin costs.

Happy to be of service, and glad to have been of use.
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