Contract expiry
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Re: Contract expiry
Which is all fair. What I would say on last year is that he hadn't really played any football at all in months due to an injury, and before that he'd barely trained for even longer as he was managing something. He certainly looked "ring-rusty" shall we say!Bruce Rioja wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:25 pmHe was also our worst signing since Cid for half a season at a division lower last season, and being 6'5" is neither here nor there when you can't head for shit. He has of course shown admirable qualities during both the second half of last season and this one to date, however, I'm just a little more wary of his shortcomings than you.GhostoftheBok wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:57 pmAs to "at this level", Santos' attributes are rare in any division in any country. He's a fast, powerful, 6'5" centre back who can play with the ball at feet and has passing vision. People can also run off his weaknesses, but players like that usually cost big money.Bruce Rioja wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:05 amKey there is "at this level", which goes back to my original point. Surely he / his agent will have a clause in any new contract we offer which gears his wages to whichever division we're in anyway.
I think a new contract makes sense. We want him here next year. I think he can play comfortably a league up but even if was going to struggle he'd be in that team if we went up (we're not signing a whole defence) and he'd defo be in it if we stay down. But with one year on his deal, it's probably new contract or sell. And I think we'd be weaker without him next year whatever.
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Re: Contract expiry
Worse signing for half a season is a bit of a stretch, especially given the other players that didn't make the grade. More than culpable granted, but that's likely to be his position at the time. I'm sure the likes of Comley didn't help.Prufrock wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:52 pmWhich is all fair. What I would say on last year is that he hadn't really played any football at all in months due to an injury, and before that he'd barely trained for even longer as he was managing something. He certainly looked "ring-rusty" shall we say!Bruce Rioja wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:25 pmHe was also our worst signing since Cid for half a season at a division lower last season, and being 6'5" is neither here nor there when you can't head for shit. He has of course shown admirable qualities during both the second half of last season and this one to date, however, I'm just a little more wary of his shortcomings than you.GhostoftheBok wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:57 pmAs to "at this level", Santos' attributes are rare in any division in any country. He's a fast, powerful, 6'5" centre back who can play with the ball at feet and has passing vision. People can also run off his weaknesses, but players like that usually cost big money.Bruce Rioja wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:05 amKey there is "at this level", which goes back to my original point. Surely he / his agent will have a clause in any new contract we offer which gears his wages to whichever division we're in anyway.
I think a new contract makes sense. We want him here next year. I think he can play comfortably a league up but even if was going to struggle he'd be in that team if we went up (we're not signing a whole defence) and he'd defo be in it if we stay down. But with one year on his deal, it's probably new contract or sell. And I think we'd be weaker without him next year whatever.
As for Santos' short comings, they can be worked on. What is noticeable though is his level of improvement in his time at the club and how well he fits the system. Contract extension definitely desired.
Re: Contract expiry
Yeah, he was dreadful for about 6 weeks. And then very up and down, some good, some bad, some middling.
As someone who crucified him early days I think he's arguably the one with the highest ceiling. Got everything you want in a defender. Only limitations are between the ears, and he's improving.
He's only 3 years older than Johnstone.
As someone who crucified him early days I think he's arguably the one with the highest ceiling. Got everything you want in a defender. Only limitations are between the ears, and he's improving.
He's only 3 years older than Johnstone.
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Re: Contract expiry
Fairly sure you're arguing with yourself there - didn't you say it was Morley?
(I can see a case for either, but right now I'd lean Morley)
Re: Contract expiry
I'm not a lawyer for nothing. The word arguably does a lotDave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:22 pmFairly sure you're arguing with yourself there - didn't you say it was Morley?
(I can see a case for either, but right now I'd lean Morley)
Though I've just checked and I only said he had a high ceiling . I'm careful with my superlatives. It seems.
It's a tough one, Trafford arguably has the highest, but it's furthest from it. Whereas Rico is a long way there but still more to grow I reckon.
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Re: Contract expiry
All fair. Objection overruled.Prufrock wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:30 pmI'm not a lawyer for nothing. The word arguably does a lotDave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:22 pmFairly sure you're arguing with yourself there - didn't you say it was Morley?
(I can see a case for either, but right now I'd lean Morley)
Though I've just checked and I only said he had a high ceiling . I'm careful with my superlatives. It seems.
It's a tough one, Trafford arguably has the highest, but it's furthest from it. Whereas Rico is a long way there but still more to grow I reckon.
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Re: Contract expiry
You could have gone with two high ceilings, the metaphorical one for Morley as he's 5'10 v the physical one for Santos....Bets well and truly hedged!Prufrock wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:30 pmI'm not a lawyer for nothing. The word arguably does a lotDave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:22 pmFairly sure you're arguing with yourself there - didn't you say it was Morley?
(I can see a case for either, but right now I'd lean Morley)
Though I've just checked and I only said he had a high ceiling . I'm careful with my superlatives. It seems.
It's a tough one, Trafford arguably has the highest, but it's furthest from it. Whereas Rico is a long way there but still more to grow I reckon.
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Re: Contract expiry
Saying we know what a player's "ceiling" is when we don't get to see them training every day is really questionable.
It leads to things like people thinking Lee Sharpe was going to be world class and Ryan Giggs wasn't good enough.
It's especially dodgy after so little time watching some of them play.
It leads to things like people thinking Lee Sharpe was going to be world class and Ryan Giggs wasn't good enough.
It's especially dodgy after so little time watching some of them play.
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Re: Contract expiry
Obviously we're working on a limited dataset compared to the coaches but we can only go off the opinions we form from the evidence we see. Otherwise, it's a forum-closer.GhostoftheBok wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:01 amSaying we know what a player's "ceiling" is when we don't get to see them training every day is really questionable.
It leads to things like people thinking Lee Sharpe was going to be world class and Ryan Giggs wasn't good enough.
It's especially dodgy after so little time watching some of them play.
Re: Contract expiry
Well exactly! It seems less pointlessly speculative to be than talking about who we'd rest when we have almost none of the information we'd need to have a view on that, but it passes the time!
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Re: Contract expiry
Morley listed at anywhere between 5’7 and 6’1 on that there t’internet. Not seen him in person, but he looks quite tall to me.Worthy4England wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:53 amYou could have gone with two high ceilings, the metaphorical one for Morley as he's 5'10 v the physical one for Santos....Bets well and truly hedged!Prufrock wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:30 pmI'm not a lawyer for nothing. The word arguably does a lotDave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:22 pmFairly sure you're arguing with yourself there - didn't you say it was Morley?
(I can see a case for either, but right now I'd lean Morley)
Though I've just checked and I only said he had a high ceiling . I'm careful with my superlatives. It seems.
It's a tough one, Trafford arguably has the highest, but it's furthest from it. Whereas Rico is a long way there but still more to grow I reckon.
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Re: Contract expiry
Even if you have every stat at your fingertips, it's still a guess...What ceiling did Maddison have when we signed him?
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Re: Contract expiry
Aye - didn't look it up. Complete punt!The_Gun wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:33 amMorley listed at anywhere between 5’7 and 6’1 on that there t’internet. Not seen him in person, but he looks quite tall to me.Worthy4England wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:53 amYou could have gone with two high ceilings, the metaphorical one for Morley as he's 5'10 v the physical one for Santos....Bets well and truly hedged!Prufrock wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:30 pmI'm not a lawyer for nothing. The word arguably does a lotDave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:22 pmFairly sure you're arguing with yourself there - didn't you say it was Morley?
(I can see a case for either, but right now I'd lean Morley)
Though I've just checked and I only said he had a high ceiling . I'm careful with my superlatives. It seems.
It's a tough one, Trafford arguably has the highest, but it's furthest from it. Whereas Rico is a long way there but still more to grow I reckon.
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Re: Contract expiry
Yeah, I thought people wouldn't like me saying that.
For me there's a difference between saying "This lad is a prospect" or "*IF* he can improve this and this he can play at a certain level" and saying "This player's ceiling is this and is higher than this player's ceiling."
It's the difference between saying "He looks like he needs a rest" and speculating about someone's specific blood glucose level.
If we want to use "ceiling" as a shorthand for "I think he's decent" then that's fair enough, but it sort of dilutes the utility of the term. Though I'm absolutely certain that I've done it myself at some point, as we're all hypocrites at times.
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Re: Contract expiry
Not really. We can still say all kinds of things about the player and what level they could play at *if* they can improve this, this and this. Whether they can or not is something we can't really assess without having watched their progression over a much longer period.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:13 amObviously we're working on a limited dataset compared to the coaches but we can only go off the opinions we form from the evidence we see. Otherwise, it's a forum-closer.
Gethin Jones, for example. I liked him when he arrived, but didn't think he could play in the Championship. I'm more confident now that he can improve to that level, based on watching his improvement over the past year and a half and seeing where and how he's improved. I still couldn't make an informed statement about his ceiling, though. That doesn't mean I can't talk here on a forum about whether he can go up another level, as I think he can.
That's why I tend to talk more about stuff that looks coachable and stuff that doesn't. I think the stuff holding Geth back from being a good Championship player are things that are coachable, rather than stuff he's stuck with; but I don't know how far he and the coaching team can take them.
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Re: Contract expiry
Sorry, you've completely lost me. Can we or can we not, in your opinion, talk about player ceilings?GhostoftheBok wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:48 pmNot really. We can still say all kinds of things about the player and what level they could play at *if* they can improve this, this and this. Whether they can or not is something we can't really assess without having watched their progression over a much longer period.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:13 amObviously we're working on a limited dataset compared to the coaches but we can only go off the opinions we form from the evidence we see. Otherwise, it's a forum-closer.
Gethin Jones, for example. I liked him when he arrived, but didn't think he could play in the Championship. I'm more confident now that he can improve to that level, based on watching his improvement over the past year and a half and seeing where and how he's improved. I still couldn't make an informed statement about his ceiling, though. That doesn't mean I can't talk here on a forum about whether he can go up another level, as I think he can.
That's why I tend to talk more about stuff that looks coachable and stuff that doesn't. I think the stuff holding Geth back from being a good Championship player are things that are coachable, rather than stuff he's stuck with; but I don't know how far he and the coaching team can take them.
Is it the specific term that upsets you? I take it to mean how good a player could be, given the ability he has shown so far and the likelihood of rounding out that skillset. Obviously they're only approximations and guesstimations. A new coach, a new position, even a new diet can radically change a player's potential (for better or worse).
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Re: Contract expiry
If we are treating "potential" and "ceiling" as interchangeable terms I've zero issues.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:58 pmSorry, you've completely lost me. Can we or can we not, in your opinion, talk about player ceilings?
Is it the specific term that upsets you? I take it to mean how good a player could be, given the ability he has shown so far and the likelihood of rounding out that skillset. Obviously they're only approximations and guesstimations. A new coach, a new position, even a new diet can radically change a player's potential (for better or worse).
I normally wouldn't, but I'm happy to adjust.
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Re: Contract expiry
I've always considered potential and ceiling, with respect to a footballer's ability, to mean the same thing. What would the difference between the two words be?
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Re: Contract expiry
Here's a way of quickly visualising squad depth. There's actually 12 "positions" there because I'm not sure Xav and Izzy fit our current formation, unless we're agreeing Izzy is a wingbackup.
. .
Red is contract expiring in the summer (Bolton contract for loanees; Xav is tied to Hamburg until 2023, Fopssey to Fulham to 2023, Traf is unknown).
Orange is contract expiring in 2023 [EDIT - I originally said 2024, wazzock], so ones we either haven't tied down or are still unsure about.
Green is contracted to at least 2024 (Morley and Charles are 2025).
Of the non-loanee reds, I wouldn't expect any to still be here next season, unless Evatt thinks Liam Gordon is worth it. That would leave us like this: (Note that I've left in the loanees, but there's no guarantees there.)
. .
It's clear there that we're short on any depth, let alone competition, at the back. Rejigging to a back four makes that arguably even clearer:
. .
What all that means is, as I've said elsewhere, that I would expect summer's signings to concentrate on the defence. Surely we need at least one centre-back to replace Baps, and even then we'd have five for three slots, and we know from this autumn how soon a squad can become transparently thin. We'll also need cover/competition for the full-back/wing-back slots, and that's a wide skillset to seek. It's set to be an interesting summer, but as with the players themselves, maybe the transfer excitement will be about quality rather than quantity.
. .
Red is contract expiring in the summer (Bolton contract for loanees; Xav is tied to Hamburg until 2023, Fopssey to Fulham to 2023, Traf is unknown).
Orange is contract expiring in 2023 [EDIT - I originally said 2024, wazzock], so ones we either haven't tied down or are still unsure about.
Green is contracted to at least 2024 (Morley and Charles are 2025).
Of the non-loanee reds, I wouldn't expect any to still be here next season, unless Evatt thinks Liam Gordon is worth it. That would leave us like this: (Note that I've left in the loanees, but there's no guarantees there.)
. .
It's clear there that we're short on any depth, let alone competition, at the back. Rejigging to a back four makes that arguably even clearer:
. .
What all that means is, as I've said elsewhere, that I would expect summer's signings to concentrate on the defence. Surely we need at least one centre-back to replace Baps, and even then we'd have five for three slots, and we know from this autumn how soon a squad can become transparently thin. We'll also need cover/competition for the full-back/wing-back slots, and that's a wide skillset to seek. It's set to be an interesting summer, but as with the players themselves, maybe the transfer excitement will be about quality rather than quantity.
Last edited by Dave Sutton's barnet on Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contract expiry
I think the issue for Evatt and Markham will be wanting to continue to push that envelope of "the possible" in all areas of the squad, as well as Evatt specifically wanting to make sure nobody feels complacent. On Markham's side, there will need to be continued development of saleable assets.
That's why I think we will see another forward option come in in the summer, which may well see someone move on. I'd expect the new player to be younger, though not necessarily young. Someone with retained value who they expect to be a serious player - ala Charles.
I don't think there will be any panic about it, though. If they can't do the ideal deal they will likely stick with what they have.
That's why I think we will see another forward option come in in the summer, which may well see someone move on. I'd expect the new player to be younger, though not necessarily young. Someone with retained value who they expect to be a serious player - ala Charles.
I don't think there will be any panic about it, though. If they can't do the ideal deal they will likely stick with what they have.
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