Tonight's Football

There ARE other teams(we'd have no-one to play otherwise) and here's where all-comers can discuss the wider world of football......

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:14 am

Absolute joke these games are on now when players are mentally on holiday - in a summer before a season where the World Cup is being played in the Middle East in December….enough football thanks dicks!

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:10 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:56 pm
Regardless of the spin, these games are still ultimately friendlies. Training sessions. Exactly the games in which we find out who and what does and doesn't work.

I really couldn't give two hoots about the result.
Broadly agree with this. I don't think he's right for it, but these games are pretty meaningless in terms of results.

Though his insistence on picking right backs at left back is a bigger issue. Shuts down the whole side. And lo they did score no goals from open play.

Games like this would be perfect to look at some others there with Shaw and Chilwell out. Mitchell at Palace, Henry at Brentford.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:40 pm

You can say what you like about Southgate but he’s taken us to a World Cup semi final and a euros final.

You have to go back to Sir Alf for a manager who has done better.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:52 pm

The joy of small sample sizes though isn't it. Is that because Southgate (took over a good Middlesborough side and relegated them, then did absolutely feck all with the u21s) is honestly a better manager than Eriksson (Italian league, two Italian cups, champions and uefa cup runner up) or Capello (seven Serie As, two La Ligas and the champions League)?

Or is it: Ecuador, Sweden, Croatia (lost); Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy (lost).

Capello didn't have the players. Eriksson drew winners Brazil, and finalists and semi finalists Portugal.

He's a good egg but those draws don't happen v often and we should have won something.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:36 am

There's spin and there's spin.

Ericksson. 2002 - Drew with Sweden and Nigeria in the group. Beat Denmark in last 16. Joyride. Got beat by first half decent team who played with 10 men for most of second half.

2004 - Lost to France despite being 1 up after 90 minutes. Won other two group games, fell at first hurdle in the knock-outs, to a team that hadn't played a qualifier and got beaten by Greece, twice.

2006 - Didn't manage three wins in a group containing Sweden, Paraguay and Trinidad and Tobago. Stunned the world by beating Ecuador in the 16's. Lost to first decent team we played as we managed to convert 1 penalty.

Capello 2010 - Came second in a group containing USA, Slovenia and Algeria. Got dicked by Germany (mind it deffo crossed the line).

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:12 am

I mean sure. My whole point is that it's reductive to draw those kind of conclusions from such small sample sizes. In 26 years (I'm sure 96 was only 10 years ago!) we've won one knockout game against a "top tier" team, a woeful Germany last time out. I'm not sure Southgate gets much credit for doing something no-one since Ramsey had when the draws have meant we didn't play anyone good until the latter stages.

(And same logic, he lost three games in 18, and couldn't beat fecking Scotland).

The frustration for me, and we're very much into opinion territory here, is that forn huge swathes of that time, the issue was clearly that we couldn't keep the ball. Club sides with English players were successful but with the English physicality allied with foreign technically good players. Now for the first time in donkeys plenty of the players in those successful English teams *are* the technically good ones. Add in one of the top three CFs in world football, we should be winning something imo and I don't see it under Gareth, good lad as he is.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:58 am

Irrespective of any excuses we make for managers past (and I don't buy your narrative on this). There is no time in my lifetime, including now, when I've woke up thinking "England ought to win X"...In any tournament, you can get beaten by a better team on the day.

So the question really is, can we do better than Southgate? I think the answer is that we probably could, but if our benchmark is "should have won the tournament" and we don't, they aren't going to last very long. I mean, given they're so much better than Southgate and have all the advantages of this exceptional squad.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:15 am

Watch Magic Millie and the girls show how it should be done tonight against Belgium women, ITV 4, 8'O clock. :oyea:
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:46 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:58 am
Irrespective of any excuses we make for managers past (and I don't buy your narrative on this). There is no time in my lifetime, including now, when I've woke up thinking "England ought to win X"...In any tournament, you can get beaten by a better team on the day.

So the question really is, can we do better than Southgate? I think the answer is that we probably could, but if our benchmark is "should have won the tournament" and we don't, they aren't going to last very long. I mean, given they're so much better than Southgate and have all the advantages of this exceptional squad.
I don't know which bit of me saying tournaments are small sample sizes and it's reductive to use "what stage did we get to" as the test means that not winning a tournament I think we could/should have should be the benchmark :D
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:16 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:46 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:58 am
Irrespective of any excuses we make for managers past (and I don't buy your narrative on this). There is no time in my lifetime, including now, when I've woke up thinking "England ought to win X"...In any tournament, you can get beaten by a better team on the day.

So the question really is, can we do better than Southgate? I think the answer is that we probably could, but if our benchmark is "should have won the tournament" and we don't, they aren't going to last very long. I mean, given they're so much better than Southgate and have all the advantages of this exceptional squad.
I don't know which bit of me saying tournaments are small sample sizes and it's reductive to use "what stage did we get to" as the test means that not winning a tournament I think we could/should have should be the benchmark :D
If what stage you got to, isn't the benchmark because it's reductive and small sample size, you're only really left with a binary "Won it" and "Didn't win it"..So anyone coming in after Southgate would not be an improvement unless they won it :D

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:17 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:52 pm
The joy of small sample sizes though isn't it. Is that because Southgate (took over a good Middlesborough side and relegated them, then did absolutely feck all with the u21s) is honestly a better manager than Eriksson (Italian league, two Italian cups, champions and uefa cup runner up) or Capello (seven Serie As, two La Ligas and the champions League)?

Or is it: Ecuador, Sweden, Croatia (lost); Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy (lost).

Capello didn't have the players. Eriksson drew winners Brazil, and finalists and semi finalists Portugal.

He's a good egg but those draws don't happen v often and we should have won something.
He’s a better England manager than those two frauds by a distance.

He’s not as good as wor Bobby even though the stats say otherwise.

But given the abject failure and how overrated England have been for decades I think he’s done a very very good job.

And I don’t see many obvious candidates for it either. You can’t just translate every good manager into the job. Nurturing you English players through is not everyone’s skill set.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm

Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:32 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:16 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:46 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:58 am
Irrespective of any excuses we make for managers past (and I don't buy your narrative on this). There is no time in my lifetime, including now, when I've woke up thinking "England ought to win X"...In any tournament, you can get beaten by a better team on the day.

So the question really is, can we do better than Southgate? I think the answer is that we probably could, but if our benchmark is "should have won the tournament" and we don't, they aren't going to last very long. I mean, given they're so much better than Southgate and have all the advantages of this exceptional squad.
I don't know which bit of me saying tournaments are small sample sizes and it's reductive to use "what stage did we get to" as the test means that not winning a tournament I think we could/should have should be the benchmark :D
If what stage you got to, isn't the benchmark because it's reductive and small sample size, you're only really left with a binary "Won it" and "Didn't win it"..So anyone coming in after Southgate would not be an improvement unless they won it :D
For me it's how good a job are they doing at getting the best out of the players available? And just looking where you get to in tournaments is far too reductive on that. There's a secondary question of whether there's anyone out there available who would do better.

It's similar to the nonsense narrative that Liverpool have some sort of Champions League mentality, why they got to the final, whereas City don't, which is why they didn't.

Rather than Benfica and Villarreal being a lot easier to beat then Atletico and Real Madrid.

Knock out tournaments have a big chunk of luck and noise. Judgement on a good job has to be wider. (And Southgate has been pretty perfect IMO on the non -football side which is a not insignificant part)
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:36 pm

That Eriksson didn't get that group of players beyond the QF in 2006 marks him down as having been an absolute Charlatan, for me.

When Rooney got sent off I remember thinking - here we go, this is why Eriksson's England manager and I'm not. We're down to ten, we need someone with pace to burn who can tire their defenders out; this is where Eriksson gives us all a massive V and get's to say "I told you so" afterwards by bringing on the hitherto unheard of kid, Theo Walcott (selected for his pace, let's not forget).

Oh no, no, no. Eriksson took Joe Cole off and stuck Peter Crouch on instead. fecking genius :roll:
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm
Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
I see him in the same mould as Gareth. Probably a brilliant coach and knows how to get the best out of players but are either genuine winners? Not sure.

Southgate was a Modric and penalty shootout away from winning. Closer than I expected.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:19 pm

Isn't Pep leaving Citeh in 2023? :-)

I think Southgate has done a good job with players he's had available. Better than I expected when he was appointed, albeit from a bar so low, you probably wouldn't want to try and limbo under whilst wearing a top hat.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:47 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:19 pm
Isn't Pep leaving Citeh in 2023? :-)

I think Southgate has done a good job with players he's had available. Better than I expected when he was appointed, albeit from a bar so low, you probably wouldn't want to try and limbo under whilst wearing a top hat.
Pep a manager who has managed clubs where he can spend the money to get a team he wants. He only accepts one way of playing. International football doesn’t work like that.

I don’t think I’d go near him for England manager. It’s not what he’s good at in my view.

England is about bringing the players through building that team spirit and confidence and also being tactically spot on during the biggest of big games.

The latter is Southgates weakness but I think some of the criticism is overblown. He didn’t ask England to sit back it’s one of those things that happens.

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Prufrock » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:55 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm
Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
I see him in the same mould as Gareth. Probably a brilliant coach and knows how to get the best out of players but are either genuine winners? Not sure.

Southgate was a Modric and penalty shootout away from winning. Closer than I expected.
I just don't see any evidence at all that Southgate is a brilliant coach. I don't think he gets the tactical side at all. He's Owen Coyle.

Potter on the other hand has got a great tune out of that Brighton squad, their main, really only, issue is scoring goals and that's almost all quality. Maupay and Welbeck...

I don't really buy the winner argument, not that it isn't important just that it's impossible to tell for the vast majority of managers who just don't have the option.

As I've said, I recognise this is largely opinions, but we should have beaten Croatia and Italy IMO. They're one of games, you can lose either, but I was never ever convinced we were set up to give us our best chance, rather than hanging in and hoping to get through. Sure we scored early in both games, but that can hardly be a disadvantage. Proper team keep the ball then and go on and win.

Croatia for example figured out we couldn't defend down both sides due to the shape, and passed us off the pitch. 2v1 down one side, through Modric and Rakitic to 2v1 on the other. From about the 15th minute. Was obvious, and we did nothing.
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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:00 pm

Southgate is going to get pelters as long as he doesn't start all the Wunderkids...Anything less than Sancho and Grealish is clearly not the way to go...

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Re: Tonight's Football

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:02 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:27 pm
Potter every day of the week for me. If not yeah, I'm struggling too.
I see him in the same mould as Gareth. Probably a brilliant coach and knows how to get the best out of players but are either genuine winners? Not sure.

Southgate was a Modric and penalty shootout away from winning. Closer than I expected.
I just don't see any evidence at all that Southgate is a brilliant coach. I don't think he gets the tactical side at all. He's Owen Coyle.

Potter on the other hand has got a great tune out of that Brighton squad, their main, really only, issue is scoring goals and that's almost all quality. Maupay and Welbeck...

I don't really buy the winner argument, not that it isn't important just that it's impossible to tell for the vast majority of managers who just don't have the option.

As I've said, I recognise this is largely opinions, but we should have beaten Croatia and Italy IMO. They're one of games, you can lose either, but I was never ever convinced we were set up to give us our best chance, rather than hanging in and hoping to get through. Sure we scored early in both games, but that can hardly be a disadvantage. Proper team keep the ball then and go on and win.

Croatia for example figured out we couldn't defend down both sides due to the shape, and passed us off the pitch. 2v1 down one side, through Modric and Rakitic to 2v1 on the other. From about the 15th minute. Was obvious, and we did nothing.
And I think it’s very easy to pick managers tactically. I mean we could go on all day about Evatt getting things wrong and not fixing them and give me a few months and I probably will.

But I’m not as convinced that it’s major tactical failings as just players not quite getting over the line in massive games against very good sides.

Two tournaments where we’ve done well and vastly better than any in the preceding two decades for me is evidence he’s doing more, much more, right than wrong.

Losing to Iceland then losing on penalties to Italy in a final is not an improvement but a monumental one.

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