The Politics Thread

[nicholaldo]

So I see that the right wing press are trying to dismantle Sunak and Mordaunt’s own opponents are trying to kill her off because she isn’t some sort of raving anti trans gammon.

All going really well. It seems like the Tory party is lost to the extremes. Or at least the public face of it is. Will the MPs do the sensible things and resist the rabid extremists?

Way I understood it is that she's now trying to switch sides in this particular branch of the culture war and score points with party members. However it seems she may have been lying about what she previously said and campaigned for, and she's been called out for it.
Her video seems to have pissed plenty off as well, she's no chance now.
We'll not get any of the more reasonable ones, especially since it's Tory party members who are choosing for us.

Yes she’s having to pretend to be as unpleasant as others to stand a chance because the whole party is incredibly unpleasant.

That’s the long and short of how thoroughly depressing it is.

It’s also maddening that an issue I suspect most people literally have never thought about is preoccupying a governing party plunging the country into recession. You’d think considering how badly the last 12 years have gone and the fact they have left us in a terrible place they might focus on that and not thinking how they can upset minorities.

No, it's right that she clarifies (or attempts to clarify) her position on it in my opinion. It probably isn't an issue that is particularly high in the public consciousness but it's one that potentially has wider ramifications than I think most people realise.

But the issue is mainly a fake fight between internet warriors rather than being something that will have real
ramifications for the majority every day.

Sport will sort itself out.

The issues are safe spaces and whatnot and the solution will be an accommodation that preserves rights but also keeps safe spaces for women.

But the actual issue and fight is as ever these days all about identify politics and getting one over the other side.

It seems as valid an issue as any other to me, irrespective of whether people might be using it as a "culture war" issue. At least, I don't feel it's worthy of being dismissed as something that will resolve itself.

(I also think it feeds into deeper philosophical arguments but this probably isn't the forum for that).

It’s not being used as an issue it’s being used as a wedge to divide people.

It’s one of the most complicated and delicate social problems in the country and no good will come of the obvious Tory need to use it as a wedge issue to define sides.

I also understand it’s important for some people. But I doubt it’s forefront of most peoples minds as they can’t afford their food or heating bills. So let’s get some perspective.

It’s not something that requires a side to be taken it’s something that requires some sense, empathy and calm.

Well, for some it's wedge issue but there's an actual issue beyond that and if any of the prospective candidates have sympathies in either direction - and clearly they do - I think it's legitimate want clarification on those sympathies as they will have a bearing on how the matter is approached under their leadership.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^I entirely reject the idea that this is about taking sides. The trap of the last few years has been very much about taking sides. This is only going to destroy us.

Why do we need someone to decide which side they are on? Why can’t they just be about sensible policy and wanting to balance out the needs of trans people and women from birth?

And yes there are militant idiots on social media who will swear you cannot. But just like every other social issue then there will be no ultimate win if you think it’s about one side winning over the other.

The amount of hatred and rhetoric of us against them is in desperate need of dialling down, not ramping up further. It is a roadblock to progress.

[nicholaldo]

^^I entirely reject the idea that this is about taking sides. The trap of the last few years has been very much about taking sides. This is only going to destroy us.

Why do we need someone to decide which side they are on? Why can’t they just be about sensible policy and wanting to balance out the needs of trans people and women from birth?

And yes there are militant idiots on social media who will swear you cannot. But just like every other social issue then there will be no ultimate win if you think it’s about one side winning over the other.

The amount of hatred and rhetoric of us against them is in desperate need of dialling down, not ramping up further. It is a roadblock to progress.

No, it shouldn't be about "taking sides", to use your phrase. But clearly, there are many MPs who hold strong opinions on the matter and it's legitimate for people to want to know if and what they are, especially if it's an issue of great importance to them, and especially because they will have a direct impact on any efforts to shape public policy.

[Worthy4England]

Of course it's about taking sides. Don't we do that every time we vote? You pick your side based on what's important to you.

[nicholaldo]

Of course it's about taking sides. Don't we do that every time we vote? You pick your side based on what's important to you.

Well, yes. But I didn't really want to be drawn into the idea that there are merely two points of views on this particular issue.

[Worthy4England]

Of course it's about taking sides. Don't we do that every time we vote? You pick your side based on what's important to you.

Well, yes. But I didn't really want to be drawn into the idea that there are merely two points of views on this particular issue.

Quite I swing both ways on it.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^I entirely reject the idea that this is about taking sides. The trap of the last few years has been very much about taking sides. This is only going to destroy us.

Why do we need someone to decide which side they are on? Why can’t they just be about sensible policy and wanting to balance out the needs of trans people and women from birth?

And yes there are militant idiots on social media who will swear you cannot. But just like every other social issue then there will be no ultimate win if you think it’s about one side winning over the other.

The amount of hatred and rhetoric of us against them is in desperate need of dialling down, not ramping up further. It is a roadblock to progress.

No, it shouldn't be about "taking sides", to use your phrase. But clearly, there are many MPs who hold strong opinions on the matter and it's legitimate for people to want to know if and what they are, especially if it's an issue of great importance to them, and especially because they will have a direct impact on any efforts to shape public policy.

Are there or are there many MPs who cynically calculate that if they want to be leader they need to have a certain opinion on it, and then if they are leader they need to give a certain opinion and certain signals in order to secure their base?

We’ve just seen Johnson who doesn’t believe in anything, doesn’t have an opinion on anything, other than what is good for him.


We see Mordaunt flip her view in a heartbeat when she felt she had to,

Instead of trying to kneel and sink to the worst of humanity how about they hold themselves to a higher standard and stop debasing themselves in the gutters of society trying to be repugnant enough to appeal to the reptiles who dwell there?

[Harry Genshaw]

Who'd be the biggest disaster for them? The one more likely to drive voters towards Labour?
I could see Hunt, Sunak and Javid (even possibly Shapps) all coming across to the electorate as a safe pair of hands.

Braverman (very unlikely) and Truss (a good chance) both come across as pretty clueless. No word of Nadine throwing her hat in the ring? Or her ring in the hat as one wag on Twitter had it

[nicholaldo]

^^I entirely reject the idea that this is about taking sides. The trap of the last few years has been very much about taking sides. This is only going to destroy us.

Why do we need someone to decide which side they are on? Why can’t they just be about sensible policy and wanting to balance out the needs of trans people and women from birth?

And yes there are militant idiots on social media who will swear you cannot. But just like every other social issue then there will be no ultimate win if you think it’s about one side winning over the other.

The amount of hatred and rhetoric of us against them is in desperate need of dialling down, not ramping up further. It is a roadblock to progress.

No, it shouldn't be about "taking sides", to use your phrase. But clearly, there are many MPs who hold strong opinions on the matter and it's legitimate for people to want to know if and what they are, especially if it's an issue of great importance to them, and especially because they will have a direct impact on any efforts to shape public policy.

Are there or are there many MPs who cynically calculate that if they want to be leader they need to have a certain opinion on it, and then if they are leader they need to give a certain opinion and certain signals in order to secure their base?

We only need to look at the number of Labour Party MPs who tortuously attempted to think up a politically suitable answer to the questions asked surrounding this topic to know they think it a salient enough topic to equivocate on (with Emily Thornberry being one honourable exception, having stated clearly where she stood on the matter and presenting an argument in its favour).

Instead of trying to kneel and sink to the worst of humanity how about they hold themselves to a higher standard and stop debasing themselves in the gutters of society trying to be repugnant enough to appeal to the reptiles who dwell there?

Specifically, who is it you're referring to here?

I'm not quite sure how Mordaunt's recent "clarification" on the matter amounts to the above unless it's your opinion that any opposition to what could loosely be termed "trans rights" is necessarily made in bad faith.

[nicholaldo]

Who'd be the biggest disaster for them? The one more likely to drive voters towards Labour?
I could see Hunt, Sunak and Javid (even possibly Shapps) all coming across to the electorate as a safe pair of hands.

Braverman (very unlikely) and Truss (a good chance) both come across as pretty clueless. No word of Nadine throwing her hat in the ring? Or her ring in the hat as one wag on Twitter had it

I think that's probably about right. Truss isn't absolutely terrible - at least not as terrible as Braverman - but she just can't be taken seriously.

If Dorries, or heaven forbid, Patel ever entered the contest it'd be as a disruptor rather than as a genuine candidate.

Just imagine a Rees-Mogg candidacy.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^I entirely reject the idea that this is about taking sides. The trap of the last few years has been very much about taking sides. This is only going to destroy us.

Why do we need someone to decide which side they are on? Why can’t they just be about sensible policy and wanting to balance out the needs of trans people and women from birth?

And yes there are militant idiots on social media who will swear you cannot. But just like every other social issue then there will be no ultimate win if you think it’s about one side winning over the other.

The amount of hatred and rhetoric of us against them is in desperate need of dialling down, not ramping up further. It is a roadblock to progress.

No, it shouldn't be about "taking sides", to use your phrase. But clearly, there are many MPs who hold strong opinions on the matter and it's legitimate for people to want to know if and what they are, especially if it's an issue of great importance to them, and especially because they will have a direct impact on any efforts to shape public policy.

Are there or are there many MPs who cynically calculate that if they want to be leader they need to have a certain opinion on it, and then if they are leader they need to give a certain opinion and certain signals in order to secure their base?

We only need to look at the number of Labour Party MPs who tortuously attempted to think up a politically suitable answer to the questions asked surrounding this topic to know they think it a salient enough topic to equivocate on (with Emily Thornberry being one honourable exception, having stated clearly where she stood on the matter and presenting an argument in its favour).

Instead of trying to kneel and sink to the worst of humanity how about they hold themselves to a higher standard and stop debasing themselves in the gutters of society trying to be repugnant enough to appeal to the reptiles who dwell there?

Specifically, who is it you're referring to here?

I'm not quite sure how Mordaunt's recent "clarification" on the matter amounts to the above unless it's your opinion that any opposition to what could loosely be termed "trans rights" is necessarily made in bad faith.

You can absolutely have a discussion about the impacts of trans rights and hold a variety of views in good faith.

I just don’t believe this brigade of ‘anti woke’ Tories are acting in good faith generally. They are just attempting to appeal to their new found angry man of England base by reducing every single debate to ‘us vs them’. Note zahawi hinting at the reintroduction of section 28 for example. They just make the sordid calculation that anyone who believes in certain things probably isn’t voting for us so let’s us it as a wedge issue.

[nicholaldo]

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think Mordaunt's doing that. She's trying to pitch herself as the reasonable option.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think Mordaunt's doing that. She's trying to pitch herself as the reasonable option.

So her supposed 180 view change in less than a year is just coincidence then and not because she feels the need to ‘change her view’ if she is to stand a chance in the leadership contest?

I don’t really buy it.

I do in fairness suspect she is balanced and does have a nuanced and balanced view. She’s just scared to say it because that wont play well with the members.

[Worthy4England]

Good news for her, is whether you buy it or not is a complete irrelevance. You ain't getting a vote, so I doubt she gives a shit!

[BWFC_Insane]

Good news for her, is whether you buy it or not is a complete irrelevance. You ain't getting a vote, so I doubt she gives a shit!

How very presumptuous sir….I have my membership card lodged in my wallet next to my drivers licence….

[Worthy4England]

Good news for her, is whether you buy it or not is a complete irrelevance. You ain't getting a vote, so I doubt she gives a shit!

How very presumptuous sir….I have my membership card lodged in my wallet next to my drivers licence….

Good effort!

[nicholaldo]

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think Mordaunt's doing that. She's trying to pitch herself as the reasonable option.

So her supposed 180 view change in less than a year is just coincidence then and not because she feels the need to ‘change her view’ if she is to stand a chance in the leadership contest?

I don’t really buy it.

I do in fairness suspect she is balanced and does have a nuanced and balanced view. She’s just scared to say it because that wont play well with the members.

I think there's a substantial difference between the constituency of people with well-reasoned objections and the "reptiles". My opinion, based on her recent comments, is she's trying to appeal to the former. The language she used was not the language of the "anti-woke".

I also think she has fairly strong sympathies in the opposite direction which she's trying to conceal.

[nicholaldo]

I see Javid's now withdrawn amid scrutiny of his tax affairs.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think Mordaunt's doing that. She's trying to pitch herself as the reasonable option.

So her supposed 180 view change in less than a year is just coincidence then and not because she feels the need to ‘change her view’ if she is to stand a chance in the leadership contest?

I don’t really buy it.

I do in fairness suspect she is balanced and does have a nuanced and balanced view. She’s just scared to say it because that wont play well with the members.

I think there's a substantial difference between the constituency of people with well-reasoned objections and the "reptiles". My opinion, based on her recent comments, is she's trying to appeal to the former. The language she used was not the language of the "anti-woke".

I also think she has fairly strong sympathies in the opposite direction which she's trying to conceal.

I think that might be true. I’m not particularly suggesting that she’s a reptile just that it’s sad as you say she has to conceal her views so as to not scare members or reptiles or whatever we want to call the various factions in a party that a decade ago was very socially progressive at least by comparison to now.

[BWFC_Insane]

I see Javid's now withdrawn amid scrutiny of his tax affairs.

Is it a tax issue or did he not have numbers? Suggestion on Twitter is he didn’t have numbers and was not actually planning for a bid unlike Sunak and genuinely did resign on principle and didn’t have a campaign or backing in place. Where have you see the tax affairs thing? Thought that was Zahawi?