The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

Looks like Sunak and Truss have decided they can only look shi**er by holding another debate, so they've pulled out....Remarkable..."I want to run the country, but I'm scared of a debate around how..."

[BWFC_Insane]

Looks like Sunak and Truss have decided they can only look shi**er by holding another debate, so they've pulled out....Remarkable..."I want to run the country, but I'm scared of a debate around how..."

Orders from Tory HQ apparently as the debates were only helping Labour.

Damage is done now though, the clips exist.

[Worthy4England]

Looks like Sunak and Truss have decided they can only look shi**er by holding another debate, so they've pulled out....Remarkable..."I want to run the country, but I'm scared of a debate around how..."

Orders from Tory HQ apparently as the debates were only helping Labour.

Damage is done now though, the clips exist.

Oh yeah, I get that bit ERG won't have liked Sunak telling the world that a big tax giveaway ain't going to fix anything, as they wait for the Brexit dividend to come rolling down the concourse...

[Prufrock]

I think that the thing for Blair is as well as his obvious talents he also had some significant advantages over Starmer.

One that the left of the party was already under control so he didn’t have the struggle of winning hearts and minds of the grassroots who say a decade before would have been more resistant.

Secondly he didn’t have the social media culture war. I’ve seen plenty of people lambast the Tories but go on to say they can’t vote for Labour because their ‘anti woke identity’ is threatened by a Labour government.

It means that Blair essentially being seen as an economic safe pair of hands applies to Starmer but it doesn’t cut through as much of middle England as it did, or perhaps it does but non middle England compensates against that cut through.

The point is that whilst I think Starmer has been a necessary. Someone to steer the party into a better place. A Kinnock if you like. I don’t necessarily think he beats a competent and well presented Sunak. At all. I do think he would beat Truss. Or anyone else bar Tugenhat.

Such is the nature of politics as worthy says we want rid of the Tories but the country hasn’t got a convincing enough alternative yet to be totally swayed.

Tories are polling at pretty much their League 2 season ticket base. They'll be hoping whoever wins can get that up back into the mid 30s and sure they'll be attacking Labour but a Tory voter going Lib Dem is still half as good as one switching across.

I'm sure they'll keep leaning into the culture war stuff but that's largely self selecting. "Ah this person who happens to be knocking about a golf course in the middle of a working day hates socialist woke labour and is representative of the country". I still have enough faith in this country that an argument that if you have a heart attack under the other lot you'll just have to get a bus down to the hospital beats nonsense about who is it isn't woke.

The Kinnock comparison I find a bit facile tbh. Very different circumstances. And not a single one of the current Tory mob is a patch on Thatcher, and we're already well into the sleaze type stuff that did for Major.

Money where my mouth is I'd say 75% change labour PM at the next election, 40% chance labour majority.

And they both go up if it isn't Sunak.

[TANGODANCER]

With a labourer father and a mill-girl mother, it's hardly surprising I was brought up on "The Spake"as a Labour devotee.. Then came.."You will see a state of prosperity such as we have never had in my lifetime - nor indeed in the history of this country"...Harold Macmillan, British (Tory) Prime Minister 1957.

Seriously, we need solutions for today, not blame accusations from the past. We sold the gunboats off for scrap a fair while back (the pictures of Queen Victoria and the Union Jacks are still good for Jubilees and historical value etc) . And then, after a succession of failures, we got Boris "let's have a party" Johnson and here we are back to the future. Help... Just tell me where to put the X...

[Worthy4England]

I wonder which one they'll have a word with on the right? At this rate, their main chance looks to be to get Badenoch or Truss to withdraw and hope the votes from the remaining candidate switches to the other...Think I now at Sunak and Truss to be left...

[BWFC_Insane]

I wonder which one they'll have a word with on the right? At this rate, their main chance looks to be to get Badenoch or Truss to withdraw and hope the votes from the remaining candidate switches to the other...Think I now at Sunak and Truss to be left...

Yeah Sunak vs Truss seems nailed on as Mordaunt has fallen away and I don’t think the ERG are confident that Badenoch will be their puppet in the same way Truss will be,

[Hoboh]

Well, had a nice day on the coast in Cumbria, brolly on the beach, nice breeze, good swim, water and sarnies in the cooler in the boot then i come home and step out of the aircon car into a bloody oven, I blame Boris!

Oh and Sunak for the extra tenner in fuel!

[TANGODANCER]

Well, had a nice day on the coast in Cumbria, brolly on the beach, nice breeze, good swim, water and sarnies in the cooler in the boot then i come home and step out of the aircon car into a bloody oven, I blame Boris!

Oh and Sunak for the extra tenner in fuel!

A genuine question. Despite my previous joking, Is anybody totally to blame for our current mess, or is it a series of circumstances ; Brexit, Covid, the Ukranian war and its effects, financial development, fuel shortages, price rises, the cost of living etc, due to a combination of them being used as political opportunism when, in reality no government could have solved the problems any better or sooner than the opposition? Surely, if there was ever a case for coalition, it's right now?

Surely, also the antics of individuals could be dealt with proportionally without besmirching the whole government and creating the media circus antics it has. Or is that too much to ask?

[Hoboh]

Well, had a nice day on the coast in Cumbria, brolly on the beach, nice breeze, good swim, water and sarnies in the cooler in the boot then i come home and step out of the aircon car into a bloody oven, I blame Boris!

Oh and Sunak for the extra tenner in fuel!

A genuine question. Despite my previous joking, Is anybody totally to blame for our current mess, or is it a series of circumstances ; Brexit, Covid, the Ukranian war and its effects, financial development, fuel shortages, price rises, the cost of living etc, due to a combination of them being used as political opportunism when, in reality no government could have solved the problems any better or sooner than the opposition? Surely, if there was ever a case for coalition, it's right now?

Surely, also the antics of individuals could be dealt with proportionally without besmirching the whole government and creating the media circus antics it has. Or is that too much to ask?

It's a mix of everything Tango, the biggest problem is the globalisation of everything which basically meant the rich got richer quicker and they spent no time at all on self independence leaving us to the whims of others.
Also like in most companies there are people and departments whose specific jobs are to work on sorting out problems and solutions yet they are dismally failing.
Far too much of various politicians of all parties trying to out do the other lot and so called colleagues then they have the civil servants to deal with.
It's a bloody mess, any private company would have failed and gone bust years ago.

[Worthy4England]

Globalization's been around a while, but it used be be called Empire. It was done differently. Globalisation in and of itself isn't a panacea to make people rich. Nor do I think it's the largest problem (bit like nuclear difficult genie to rebottle). The largest problems are caused by shareholder "needs" for growth and returns. It's capitalism that isn't working for the ordinary Bob in the street, not globalisation.

[Hoboh]

The blame rests with the obsession with globalisation.
The rich and elite farm out manufacturing to the cheapest places who like China were only too happy to provide. Did this mean cheaper goods for consumers? Not really just more profit for the wealthy. When you get high end engines and many components made overseas for say BMW does this make them cheaper? Does it hell.
The same goes for importing fuel and energy from abroad, leaves us at the mercy of the Arabs and others. I'd love to know whose smart arsed idea it was to import Electric from the bloody French when we could have built and replaced our own nuclear power stations.
Then there is the political side of things were the people or national interests fall way below the expectations of the people, basically they only want to get elected.
Governments have departments and ministers who are supposed to work out solutions, throw in the self centered civil servants and you have a mess that would see any private company go to the wall.
It's a mess of epic proportions.

[Worthy4England]

I sorta get your point Hobes, but actually it does make it cheaper...but as you say that doesn't necessarily mean "for the end consumer"....As it happens, I'm just in the middle of costing something that has an onshore and offshore option. My onshore price to the customer is 60% higher...That's at the same margin % for both . Obvs, we could cut the margin for onshore and make the same amount of money, but our shareholders don't like that and obvs some of those investors are pension funds etc...I don't think going after "globalization" will help you much. What needs to happen is to get capitalism to work for the majority, because it isn't doing.

[BWFC_Insane]

Blaming ‘globalisation’ like blaming the EU is an absolute nonsense.

The vast majority of our problems are entirely self inflicted. You can trace much of the issues today with huge inequality and a complete lack of economic balance back to Thatcherism. Her economic policy of extreme free market economics and anything that couldn’t stand on its own two feet being killed off and a transition to a service and finance dominated economy has left the country in this state. That’s got nothing to do with globalisation. But everything to do with our own policy. Greed drove our economics but boom and bust has only suited the richest and created a bubble where they offer no productivity but still grow their wealth.

The idea that you were ever going to be able to stop emerging economies undercutting you is for the birds. But successive governments have said that ‘the market decides’ rather than actually working out the value of things and helping to preserve them. As a result we are now here.

If your economic policy is driven by matching the USA then this is exactly where we’d always end up.

Why not look at the success of Nordic economies instead and see how they add value.

Here’s something that no doubt will upset some but it’s true that collective bargaining and unionisation are actually drivers of economic productivity yet we have allowed the Tory governments to attack these and workers rights with a zeal. And Blair relied on Uk and EU legislation to bestow worker rights yet these are now under attack by the Brexit dominated government. If you look at Brexit many of its backers have seemingly only the intent to erode workers rights to, yep, you guessed it ensure wealth is further concentrated at the top for the shareholders.

I could rant about this all day. But we are our own worst enemies. We’ve done this to ourselves. By allowing ourselves to elect people who simply believe copying US economics will be a panacea. Instead it’s a death knoll.

[Worthy4England]

I agree. The UK housebuilders aren't making biggest profits ever because they've offshored everything....So the effect isn't "because of globalisation"

[TANGODANCER]

I could rant about this all day. But we are our own worst enemies. We’ve done this to ourselves. By allowing ourselves to elect people who simply believe copying US economics will be a panacea. Instead it’s a death knoll.

Surely, taking into account all the answers and views, the glaringly obvious fact to emerge is that political ignorance (me and co) can only see results from our "whistling in the dark" voting and the obviously wrong idea that our politicians know what they are doing? All the fingers point to the fact that the "few" are reaping the rewards " how they must be grinning all the way to their Bahamas ,or other offshore legal theft outlets, and grow fatter whilst kicking the working class in the teeth. It's Parliament and the government who use the law to their own advantage as shareholders and investors yet just grab more and more. It's classic fairy-tale villainism that just gets accepted as the norm. Our current climate seems to be helping rather than hindering it all.

Crime, however disguised, does pay, and the biggest criminals are the luxury yacht, private jet and property owners (quite a few of whom aren't even in the country much), and dodging the Revenue is a corporate game. If Parliament were really serious they would get a grip of tax outlets and stop worrying about who they would offend. Go backwards and scrap privatisation on the grand scale;energy, public transport, pointless property development that does noting but provide outlets for skullduggery for money monopolising, and support home-grown industry.Back to Shakespeare: SOME RISE BY SIN, AND SOME, BY VIRTUE, FALL

Pointless rant over.. I'm not bad on history, Jane Austen and Omar Khayyam mind...

[BWFC_Insane]

I could rant about this all day. But we are our own worst enemies. We’ve done this to ourselves. By allowing ourselves to elect people who simply believe copying US economics will be a panacea. Instead it’s a death knoll.

Surely, taking into account all the answers and views, the glaringly obvious fact to emerge is that political ignorance (me and co) can only see results from our "whistling in the dark" voting and the obviously wrong idea that our politicians know what they are doing? All the fingers point to the fact that the "few" are reaping the rewards " how they must be grinning all the way to their Bahamas ,or other offshore legal theft outlets, and grow fatter whilst kicking the working class in the teeth. It's Parliament and the government who use the law to their own advantage as shareholders and investors yet just grab more and more. It's classic fairy-tale villainism that just gets accepted as the norm. Our current climate seems to be helping rather than hindering it all.

Crime, however disguised, does pay, and the biggest criminals are the luxury yacht, private jet and property owners (quite a few of whom aren't even in the country much), and dodging the Revenue is a corporate game. If Parliament were really serious they would get a grip of tax outlets and stop worrying about who they would offend. Go backwards and scrap privatisation on the grand scale;energy, public transport, pointless property development that does noting but provide outlets for skullduggery for money monopolising, and support home-grown industry.Back to Shakespeare: SOME RISE BY SIN, AND SOME, BY VIRTUE, FALL

Pointless rant over.. I'm not bad on history, Jane Austen and Omar Khayyam mind...

Yeah but we’ve allowed this. We’ve allowed our government aided by a right wing media to convince Turkeys to vote for Christmas. We see it time and time again. How many people angry at their lot turn on each other or foreigners or whatever rather than actually looking at the governments they’ve elected and honestly appraising how they aren’t working for them.

Look at how people were manipulated into voting for Brexit yet what it’s delivered is a huge drop in trade, economic output and the real motivations behind it are now clear. Cutting our environmental, food and worker standards and for what gain? To make the richest few even richer.

We let it happen and allow the ‘common sense’ of the right wing print media to seep into society like some sort of glue that holds the government, and the elite few together yet we never turn round and ask ourselves why we do this.


We couldn’t possibly have Ed Milliband as leader cos he ate a bacon sandwich funny and we didn’t want ‘instability’ so had to stick with Cameron. Definitely delivered that stability…

It’s intensely frustrating how the wider electorate allows itself to be conned time and time again by incorrect economics, and divided by the stirring up on populist hate. But it happens pretty much every single time. And the net result is we drive ourselves to extremes on both sides as we’ve seen. And it becomes very dangerous until it swings back to more sensible politics for a short while. Never ending.

[Hoboh]

Blaming ‘globalisation’ like blaming the EU is an absolute nonsense.

The vast majority of our problems are entirely self inflicted. You can trace much of the issues today with huge inequality and a complete lack of economic balance back to Thatcherism. Her economic policy of extreme free market economics and anything that couldn’t stand on its own two feet being killed off and a transition to a service and finance dominated economy has left the country in this state. That’s got nothing to do with globalisation. But everything to do with our own policy. Greed drove our economics but boom and bust has only suited the richest and created a bubble where they offer no productivity but still grow their wealth.

Oh okay so where exactly was your great God Blair fixing all this then, you know like palming off supply of services to the armed forces, NHS etc. to slave labour private companies?

The idea that you were ever going to be able to stop emerging economies undercutting you is for the birds. But successive governments have said that ‘the market decides’ rather than actually working out the value of things and helping to preserve them. As a result we are now here.

Where does it, other than in wealthy companies/people's outlook state you have to purchase from developing countries? Many of Who by the way have been stealing innovation over decades

If your economic policy is driven by matching the USA then this is exactly where we’d always end up.

Why not look at the success of Nordic economies instead and see how they add value.

Here’s something that no doubt will upset some but it’s true that collective bargaining and unionisation are actually drivers of economic productivity yet we have allowed the Tory governments to attack these and workers rights with a zeal. And Blair relied on Uk and EU legislation to bestow worker rights yet these are now under attack by the Brexit dominated government. If you look at Brexit many of its backers have seemingly only the intent to erode workers rights to, yep, you guessed it ensure wealth is further concentrated at the top for the shareholders.

You lying sod, unions have never been at the forefront of productivity, I remember our piece work earnings being curbed to certain levels by the union at Edbro during the 70's because it meant some had to work harder to keep up their wage.

I could rant about this all day. But we are our own worst enemies. We’ve done this to ourselves. By allowing ourselves to elect people who simply believe copying US economics will be a panacea. Instead it’s a death knoll.

When will you get it in your head we are following no one, the wealthy elite have their ways to get wealthier and that is the only agenda they follow, globalisation is the product they use that suits them best not countries with their own self sufficiency and independence.
On the EU the way they were moving would have meant a vote in a general election would be akin to voting for your parish council to cut the grass, centralised European government in the pockets of the rich and elite would have suited them down to the ground, anyone who didn't play would get taken down like the Greeks.

[BWFC_Insane]

Blaming ‘globalisation’ like blaming the EU is an absolute nonsense.

The vast majority of our problems are entirely self inflicted. You can trace much of the issues today with huge inequality and a complete lack of economic balance back to Thatcherism. Her economic policy of extreme free market economics and anything that couldn’t stand on its own two feet being killed off and a transition to a service and finance dominated economy has left the country in this state. That’s got nothing to do with globalisation. But everything to do with our own policy. Greed drove our economics but boom and bust has only suited the richest and created a bubble where they offer no productivity but still grow their wealth.

Oh okay so where exactly was your great God Blair fixing all this then, you know like palming off supply of services to the armed forces, NHS etc. to slave labour private companies?

The idea that you were ever going to be able to stop emerging economies undercutting you is for the birds. But successive governments have said that ‘the market decides’ rather than actually working out the value of things and helping to preserve them. As a result we are now here.

Where does it, other than in wealthy companies/people's outlook state you have to purchase from developing countries? Many of Who by the way have been stealing innovation over decades

If your economic policy is driven by matching the USA then this is exactly where we’d always end up.

Why not look at the success of Nordic economies instead and see how they add value.

Here’s something that no doubt will upset some but it’s true that collective bargaining and unionisation are actually drivers of economic productivity yet we have allowed the Tory governments to attack these and workers rights with a zeal. And Blair relied on Uk and EU legislation to bestow worker rights yet these are now under attack by the Brexit dominated government. If you look at Brexit many of its backers have seemingly only the intent to erode workers rights to, yep, you guessed it ensure wealth is further concentrated at the top for the shareholders.

You lying sod, unions have never been at the forefront of productivity, I remember our piece work earnings being curbed to certain levels by the union at Edbro during the 70's because it meant some had to work harder to keep up their wage.

I could rant about this all day. But we are our own worst enemies. We’ve done this to ourselves. By allowing ourselves to elect people who simply believe copying US economics will be a panacea. Instead it’s a death knoll.

When will you get it in your head we are following no one, the wealthy elite have their ways to get wealthier and that is the only agenda they follow, globalisation is the product they use that suits them best not countries with their own self sufficiency and independence.
On the EU the way they were moving would have meant a vote in a general election would be akin to voting for your parish council to cut the grass, centralised European government in the pockets of the rich and elite would have suited them down to the ground, anyone who didn't play would get taken down like the Greeks.

If you look at actual published research and look at the impact of strong collective bargaining on economies it makes the stronger. It improves productivity. If you look at countries where unions have worked in partnership with government and industry their economies are much stronger and there is less inequality. Those are the facts. Just because you’ve been fed a diet of nonsense that has made you believe the opposite doesn’t make the fact less true.

Blair is certainly not my god and if you read my post it is clear I regard him relying on legislation rather than reforming and bolstering our trade unions as a mistake as the legislation in place to protect workers has been removed or is under serious threat. Blair did not do enough or really much to counter the economic argument of Thatcher, in fact he broadly agreed with it. And that’s his failing. He did of course ensure that public services were absolutely at their peak and used the productivity and growth to make that happen which of course in itself drives further growth and ‘levelling up’. But it was not fixing the system it was just using it to our advantage but that’s not enough.

I don’t wish to get into an argument with you on the EU or whatever but it’s simply a fact that those who pushed for it have profited whilst putting nothing back and the country as a whole has lost out. Economically we are hurting, partly as a result of the huge supply side shock Brexit delivered. It isn’t surprising nor unexpected but the only thing that has changed as a result is a lowering of our standards. The lack of opportunities delivered is symptomatic of the people who championed it. The fact remains that even if your argument about leaving the eu for, let’s summise, sovereignty reasons, holds the economic shock is hurting and the visionaries who led the Brexit campaign can’t find any good or positive benefits so have to invent them. We aren’t hurting because we are out of the EU. But we are hurting being out of the single market. Massively so. If you work in any industry that deals with Europe you will see how bad it is. Like it or not it’s a hit and nobody has done anything to solve it.

We are now seeing the lowest real wages since records began. It’s grim. You can disagree with me on the solutions but the causes I’m afraid are not up for dispute anymore.

[Hoboh]

Blaming ‘globalisation’ like blaming the EU is an absolute nonsense.

The vast majority of our problems are entirely self inflicted. You can trace much of the issues today with huge inequality and a complete lack of economic balance back to Thatcherism. Her economic policy of extreme free market economics and anything that couldn’t stand on its own two feet being killed off and a transition to a service and finance dominated economy has left the country in this state. That’s got nothing to do with globalisation. But everything to do with our own policy. Greed drove our economics but boom and bust has only suited the richest and created a bubble where they offer no productivity but still grow their wealth.

Oh okay so where exactly was your great God Blair fixing all this then, you know like palming off supply of services to the armed forces, NHS etc. to slave labour private companies?

The idea that you were ever going to be able to stop emerging economies undercutting you is for the birds. But successive governments have said that ‘the market decides’ rather than actually working out the value of things and helping to preserve them. As a result we are now here.

Where does it, other than in wealthy companies/people's outlook state you have to purchase from developing countries? Many of Who by the way have been stealing innovation over decades

If your economic policy is driven by matching the USA then this is exactly where we’d always end up.

Why not look at the success of Nordic economies instead and see how they add value.

Here’s something that no doubt will upset some but it’s true that collective bargaining and unionisation are actually drivers of economic productivity yet we have allowed the Tory governments to attack these and workers rights with a zeal. And Blair relied on Uk and EU legislation to bestow worker rights yet these are now under attack by the Brexit dominated government. If you look at Brexit many of its backers have seemingly only the intent to erode workers rights to, yep, you guessed it ensure wealth is further concentrated at the top for the shareholders.

You lying sod, unions have never been at the forefront of productivity, I remember our piece work earnings being curbed to certain levels by the union at Edbro during the 70's because it meant some had to work harder to keep up their wage.

I could rant about this all day. But we are our own worst enemies. We’ve done this to ourselves. By allowing ourselves to elect people who simply believe copying US economics will be a panacea. Instead it’s a death knoll.

When will you get it in your head we are following no one, the wealthy elite have their ways to get wealthier and that is the only agenda they follow, globalisation is the product they use that suits them best not countries with their own self sufficiency and independence.
On the EU the way they were moving would have meant a vote in a general election would be akin to voting for your parish council to cut the grass, centralised European government in the pockets of the rich and elite would have suited them down to the ground, anyone who didn't play would get taken down like the Greeks.

If you look at actual published research and look at the impact of strong collective bargaining on economies it makes the stronger. It improves productivity. If you look at countries where unions have worked in partnership with government and industry their economies are much stronger and there is less inequality. Those are the facts. Just because you’ve been fed a diet of nonsense that has made you believe the opposite doesn’t make the fact less true.

Blair is certainly not my god and if you read my post it is clear I regard him relying on legislation rather than reforming and bolstering our trade unions as a mistake as the legislation in place to protect workers has been removed or is under serious threat. Blair did not do enough or really much to counter the economic argument of Thatcher, in fact he broadly agreed with it. And that’s his failing. He did of course ensure that public services were absolutely at their peak and used the productivity and growth to make that happen which of course in itself drives further growth and ‘levelling up’. But it was not fixing the system it was just using it to our advantage but that’s not enough.

I don’t wish to get into an argument with you on the EU or whatever but it’s simply a fact that those who pushed for it have profited whilst putting nothing back and the country as a whole has lost out. Economically we are hurting, partly as a result of the huge supply side shock Brexit delivered. It isn’t surprising nor unexpected but the only thing that has changed as a result is a lowering of our standards. The lack of opportunities delivered is symptomatic of the people who championed it. The fact remains that even if your argument about leaving the eu for, let’s summise, sovereignty reasons, holds the economic shock is hurting and the visionaries who led the Brexit campaign can’t find any good or positive benefits so have to invent them. We aren’t hurting because we are out of the EU. But we are hurting being out of the single market. Massively so. If you work in any industry that deals with Europe you will see how bad it is. Like it or not it’s a hit and nobody has done anything to solve it.

We are now seeing the lowest real wages since records began. It’s grim. You can disagree with me on the solutions but the causes I’m afraid are not up for dispute anymore.

The economic shock you and other remainers wail on about is down more to the worldwide shock of two years of Covid and no amount of remain biased surveys will change that!

Oh well let's see the son's of Scargil and others return to destroy industries so you can level up, think the train drivers union give a monkey's for Mick down your road? No.