The Politics Thread

[jimbo]

Abolishing NHS England. Feels like the right thing but devil will be in the detail.

Agreed on both counts. Right to get rid. But need to see how DHSC works now and what happens to ICBs.

More generally though it does feel to me like the government are finding their feet now and just going to go for it. Comes down to whether they get the judgement right.

As a statement, ‘abolishing NHS England’ is just a headline. Their work will need to be picked up by other organisations, so we wait and see how that evolves. I’m a little concerned about bringing the NHS back into more direct government control. It leaves it vulnerable to the whims of the government of the day and risks dramatic changes every 5 years.

[Worthy4England]

Abolishing NHS England. Feels like the right thing but devil will be in the detail.

Agreed on both counts. Right to get rid. But need to see how DHSC works now and what happens to ICBs.

More generally though it does feel to me like the government are finding their feet now and just going to go for it. Comes down to whether they get the judgement right.

As a statement, ‘abolishing NHS England’ is just a headline. Their work will need to be picked up by other organisations, so we wait and see how that evolves. I’m a little concerned about bringing the NHS back into more direct government control. It leaves it vulnerable to the whims of the government of the day and risks dramatic changes every 5 years.

There's nothing preventing any elected Government making dramatic changes every 6 months, whether NHS England is there or not, other than ballot box wrath. We could argue the wisdom of doing so, but that's a different matter.

[BWFC_Insane]

Abolishing NHS England. Feels like the right thing but devil will be in the detail.

Agreed on both counts. Right to get rid. But need to see how DHSC works now and what happens to ICBs.

More generally though it does feel to me like the government are finding their feet now and just going to go for it. Comes down to whether they get the judgement right.

As a statement, ‘abolishing NHS England’ is just a headline. Their work will need to be picked up by other organisations, so we wait and see how that evolves. I’m a little concerned about bringing the NHS back into more direct government control. It leaves it vulnerable to the whims of the government of the day and risks dramatic changes every 5 years.

From what Streeting has said though the problem as was is that NHS England wanted him to effectively lead down and they enact it. And I think it had the counter impact to what you describe in that its existence and reporting line meant that the NHS was more politicised. NHS England was theoretically an attempt to shift blame from Tory austerity and cuts to an unelected body but the issue is that when you create that body and it’s reporting line is to HS and ultimately its existence is down to DHSC you’ve made politicisation worse.

Streeting is echoing a more local bottom up rather than top down model - which is exactly the right thing. Not enough detail yet to assess whether the necessary parts will be in place though.

[Worthy4England]

I think, as Jimbo says, at the moment it's just a headline. We need to see what happens next.

[Hoboh]

I think, as Jimbo says, at the moment it's just a headline. We need to see what happens next.

I reckon it will be the awakening of the unions in the labour party which alongside MP's anger over disability cuts, will lead to 2tiers demise.
Reckon the Robot will be first to go in damage limitation though.

[Worthy4England]

I think, as Jimbo says, at the moment it's just a headline. We need to see what happens next.

I reckon it will be the awakening of the unions in the labour party which alongside MP's anger over disability cuts, will lead to 2tiers demise.
Reckon the Robot will be first to go in damage limitation though.

Is there any point where you don't try and blame something you don't like? It isn't unions that have got us to this point. I know it's gonna stick in the throat to say it's capitalism but at this point, it's pretty fcuking clear.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think, as Jimbo says, at the moment it's just a headline. We need to see what happens next.

I reckon it will be the awakening of the unions in the labour party which alongside MP's anger over disability cuts, will lead to 2tiers demise.
Reckon the Robot will be first to go in damage limitation though.

The thing is that Starmer has plenty of support in Labour and also has clearly become Labours biggest maybe only electoral asset in the last month or two. As crazy as that sounds he comfortably wins best PM polls against pretty much everyone now. And there is as it stands not a single alternative choice in Labour who could a) win a leadership contest as things stand and b) would be more likely to win a GE for Labour than Starmer.

And take out the 20 or so socialist campaign group nutter MPs and Starmer would very much like to take them out - Labour MPs also know all this.

Starmer doesn’t become at risk until we are maybe in mid 2028 and Labour are way behind in the polls. Until then I’d be very surprised if there way any successful coup - the party is not in that place.

[Hoboh]

I think, as Jimbo says, at the moment it's just a headline. We need to see what happens next.

I reckon it will be the awakening of the unions in the labour party which alongside MP's anger over disability cuts, will lead to 2tiers demise.
Reckon the Robot will be first to go in damage limitation though.

Is there any point where you don't try and blame something you don't like? It isn't unions that have got us to this point. I know it's gonna stick in the throat to say it's capitalism but at this point, it's pretty fcuking clear.

Pray, do tell where I was blaming the Unions?

You asked, "what happens next", I merely put down my opinion. Also, I believe it has sod all to do with capitalism, more like sheer stupidity in following 'the needs' of certain people and groups who, frankly, could not successfully run a piss up in a brewery. How many layers of management and structures do you need? All at substantial cost to the taxpayers and this is duplicated throughout the NHS, not just one area.

[Worthy4England]

I think, as Jimbo says, at the moment it's just a headline. We need to see what happens next.

I reckon it will be the awakening of the unions in the labour party which alongside MP's anger over disability cuts, will lead to 2tiers demise.
Reckon the Robot will be first to go in damage limitation though.

Is there any point where you don't try and blame something you don't like? It isn't unions that have got us to this point. I know it's gonna stick in the throat to say it's capitalism but at this point, it's pretty fcuking clear.

Pray, do tell where I was blaming the Unions?

You asked, "what happens next", I merely put down my opinion. Also, I believe it has sod all to do with capitalism, more like sheer stupidity in following 'the needs' of certain people and groups who, frankly, could not successfully run a piss up in a brewery. How many layers of management and structures do you need? All at substantial cost to the taxpayers and this is duplicated throughout the NHS, not just one area.

Fair do's mate on the union part, you're just trying to warm us up for some future finger pointing.

You seem to be saying that capitalism, centred on private ownership, free markets (that act as cartels), profit and generally long term stagnant wages is less responsible than a quango with 13,000 people in it for the situation that's unfolding? Like you, I think NHS England needed to go, whether any of them could run a piss up in a brewery, I dunno, like many government quangos, they're a mess. The politics (small p) between quangos and the organisations they oversee has always been a mess and often intractible.

The argument over 40 years from governments has been we have no money so let's cut services, yet there's lots of money about, because we keep growing. We need to stop knocking workers and go after the problem.

[Hoboh]

I think, as Jimbo says, at the moment it's just a headline. We need to see what happens next.

I reckon it will be the awakening of the unions in the labour party which alongside MP's anger over disability cuts, will lead to 2tiers demise.
Reckon the Robot will be first to go in damage limitation though.

Is there any point where you don't try and blame something you don't like? It isn't unions that have got us to this point. I know it's gonna stick in the throat to say it's capitalism but at this point, it's pretty fcuking clear.

Pray, do tell where I was blaming the Unions?

You asked, "what happens next", I merely put down my opinion. Also, I believe it has sod all to do with capitalism, more like sheer stupidity in following 'the needs' of certain people and groups who, frankly, could not successfully run a piss up in a brewery. How many layers of management and structures do you need? All at substantial cost to the taxpayers and this is duplicated throughout the NHS, not just one area.

Fair do's mate on the union part, you're just trying to warm us up for some future finger pointing.

You seem to be saying that capitalism, centred on private ownership, free markets (that act as cartels), profit and generally long term stagnant wages is less responsible than a quango with 13,000 people in it for the situation that's unfolding? Like you, I think NHS England needed to go, whether any of them could run a piss up in a brewery, I dunno, like many government quangos, they're a mess. The politics (small p) between quangos and the organisations they oversee has always been a mess and often intractible.

The argument over 40 years from governments has been we have no money so let's cut services, yet there's lots of money about, because we keep growing. We need to stop knocking workers and go after the problem.

Wage stagnation in the UK is, I agree, actually appalling. A recent survey has shown us slipping right down the ladder despite supposedly being the 6th richest nation. But, we are taught, rising wages equal rising costs and prices, despite vast amounts of goods we consume coming from overseas 2 bob a week workers, so yeah, someone is ripping us off somewhere.

Capitalism is merely a name for stuff that has happened for centuries with Pharaohs, kings, Emperors, Lords etc. Nothing new there so the human race has hardly moved on.
Answers? Not a scoobie and I'll guess we will just carry on for the next couple of hundred years in that same way.

[Worthy4England]

That was a very convenient bit of teaching, wasn't it? For someone as inquisitive as yourself, mate, I'm surprised you take that at face value. The thing that causes inflation is the price, although they always want to link to cost, because the notion that that profits might have to take a hit because running them better given all the tax incentives the taxpayer funds doesn't happen would be too tough to contemplate.

There are few similarities between Pharaohs and today.

[Hoboh]

That was a very convenient bit of teaching, wasn't it? For someone as inquisitive as yourself, mate, I'm surprised you take that at face value. The thing that causes inflation is the price, although they always want to link to cost, because the notion that that profits might have to take a hit because running them better given all the tax incentives the taxpayer funds doesn't happen would be too tough to contemplate.

There are few similarities between Pharaohs and today.

So your angle on poor pay for the subjects is a complete myth then? Admittedly, it was food that was the currency back then and the bloke with the fancy headgear and his sycophants the only ones that profited.

[Worthy4England]

That was a very convenient bit of teaching, wasn't it? For someone as inquisitive as yourself, mate, I'm surprised you take that at face value. The thing that causes inflation is the price, although they always want to link to cost, because the notion that that profits might have to take a hit because running them better given all the tax incentives the taxpayer funds doesn't happen would be too tough to contemplate.

There are few similarities between Pharaohs and today.

So your angle on poor pay for the subjects is a complete myth then? Admittedly, it was food that was the currency back then and the bloke with the fancy headgear and his sycophants the only ones that profited.

I don't have an angle specifically on subjects of the Pharaohs, and would suggest if that's your bag, maybe go knock out a pyramid or dig an underground tomb or summat.

Do you consider yourself a subject? If not, there's probably not the same rules applying.

[Hoboh]

That was a very convenient bit of teaching, wasn't it? For someone as inquisitive as yourself, mate, I'm surprised you take that at face value. The thing that causes inflation is the price, although they always want to link to cost, because the notion that that profits might have to take a hit because running them better given all the tax incentives the taxpayer funds doesn't happen would be too tough to contemplate.

There are few similarities between Pharaohs and today.

So your angle on poor pay for the subjects is a complete myth then? Admittedly, it was food that was the currency back then and the bloke with the fancy headgear and his sycophants the only ones that profited.

I don't have an angle specifically on subjects of the Pharaohs, and would suggest if that's your bag, maybe go knock out a pyramid or dig an underground tomb or summat.

Do you consider yourself a subject? If not, there's probably not the same rules applying.

All I'm trying to say is a pecking order has been in place since time began and capitalism is merely reflective of that.

Many years ago as an apprentice, the better paid office staff lived in the 'ivory towers', they looked up and wished for grace and favour from the higher ups who fell over themselves to please those further up the food chain, still happens, nothings changed.

[Worthy4England]

That was a very convenient bit of teaching, wasn't it? For someone as inquisitive as yourself, mate, I'm surprised you take that at face value. The thing that causes inflation is the price, although they always want to link to cost, because the notion that that profits might have to take a hit because running them better given all the tax incentives the taxpayer funds doesn't happen would be too tough to contemplate.

There are few similarities between Pharaohs and today.

So your angle on poor pay for the subjects is a complete myth then? Admittedly, it was food that was the currency back then and the bloke with the fancy headgear and his sycophants the only ones that profited.

I don't have an angle specifically on subjects of the Pharaohs, and would suggest if that's your bag, maybe go knock out a pyramid or dig an underground tomb or summat.

Do you consider yourself a subject? If not, there's probably not the same rules applying.

All I'm trying to say is a pecking order has been in place since time began and capitalism is merely reflective of that.

Many years ago as an apprentice, the better paid office staff lived in the 'ivory towers', they looked up and wished for grace and favour from the higher ups who fell over themselves to please those further up the food chain, still happens, nothings changed.

Nothing will ever change, whilst people say "that's the way it's always been." But you are not correct. Pharaoh's were not capitalist. Which part of free markets do you think they embraced? I don't recall Adam Smith being a Pharaoh, but who can tell, I mean he advocated a taxation system in proportion to wealth (and over and above that for the rich)

Capitalism is not a symptom of anything. It's pretty much the cause of our financial existence.

[Hoboh]

That was a very convenient bit of teaching, wasn't it? For someone as inquisitive as yourself, mate, I'm surprised you take that at face value. The thing that causes inflation is the price, although they always want to link to cost, because the notion that that profits might have to take a hit because running them better given all the tax incentives the taxpayer funds doesn't happen would be too tough to contemplate.

There are few similarities between Pharaohs and today.

So your angle on poor pay for the subjects is a complete myth then? Admittedly, it was food that was the currency back then and the bloke with the fancy headgear and his sycophants the only ones that profited.

I don't have an angle specifically on subjects of the Pharaohs, and would suggest if that's your bag, maybe go knock out a pyramid or dig an underground tomb or summat.

Do you consider yourself a subject? If not, there's probably not the same rules applying.

All I'm trying to say is a pecking order has been in place since time began and capitalism is merely reflective of that.

Many years ago as an apprentice, the better paid office staff lived in the 'ivory towers', they looked up and wished for grace and favour from the higher ups who fell over themselves to please those further up the food chain, still happens, nothings changed.

Nothing will ever change, whilst people say "that's the way it's always been." But you are not correct. Pharaoh's were not capitalist. Which part of free markets do you think they embraced? I don't recall Adam Smith being a Pharaoh, but who can tell, I mean he advocated a taxation system in proportion to wealth (and over and above that for the rich)

Capitalism is not a symptom of anythi ng. It's pretty much the cause of our financial existence.

No such thing as a free market, never has been.
Adam Smith was in it for his own pocket.
Bartering is the future, like garlic bread

[Worthy4England]

Quite, so the bloke that wrote (one of) the original books was in it for himself. How do you think that's gonna pan out for people not in that Club who didn't write how shit should work?

We need to change it.

[BWFC_Insane]

Labour for me are going about the disability benefits changes entirely wrongly. Yes they are correct we need to get people off those benefits since our bill is disproportionately higher than Europe’s and rising at a faster rate too. But there is no evidence that it’s because people are too comfortable on benefits - I mean some edge cases maybe but generally our sickness and disability benefits are less generous than most of Europe’s. So if it was the case that we just need to offer more stick then our bill would be lower and falling. So what’s the issue? I suspect it’s much more complex than they want to admit and a huge range of factors from our employment culture to falling living standards, the NHS, our lack of mental health services and I suspect a small element of culture - not a big factor but it probably does play a part.

But this complex mixture of factors means that we won’t get people into work if they aren’t helped and also if employers won’t take them on.

The argument from the left that it’s immoral to help people into work or expect that some should is wrong but equally I don’t see how cutting benefits changes anything beyond saving some money that no doubt will be short term in nature.

The media in trying to say how terrible the cuts are keep producing examples that show I think the problem we have. This one from the BBC for example.

Alison, 56, who lives with her brother in a council property in Southampton.

She has been diagnosed with depression, anxiety and PTSD brought on by childhood traumas. She also suffers panic attacks and night terrors. Since Covid she is afraid of leaving the house due to "fear of germs".

Alison hasn't worked since she lost her job with Southampton City Council in 1997, and claims both Pip, the main disability benefit, and Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) totalling around £1,700 per month.
She says she would find it difficult to cope with the pressure of a job.

Now look I don’t think taking money away is going to magically get her into work. Labour should be ashamed that they are peddling this nonsense. But equally - how many people with similar conditions are indeed working? I’d suggest hundreds of thousands. Yes I don’t doubt she has mental health problems but the problem is she’s not worked for 28 years of her working life. That cannot be right given that many in the same boat have had to work. However, how do you get people like that into work? Nobody is employing them. I can promise you that. The job market is not good as it is let alone a woman in their mid 50’s who hasn’t worked since before Blair was PM. Good luck with that.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

First of all I dislike the fact welfare is a homogenised mess of lots of different things and gets viewed negatively because it produces a huge number. For a start pensions should be a separate thing. Take that out and the numbers start to look a little better. Sort out housing in general and cut the housing benefit element and that number is looking better still. Split the out of work stuff into short term and long term and we get a better picture.

The whole system needs reform so that people who need help get it and get it when they need it, without needing a degree in form filling. If it takes 6 weeks or whatever to get out of work assistance then taking insecure work on means regularly going 6 weeks without anything and a salary that doesn't allow you to save for those in-between times. Lots of people would take work as and when they can get it, but if by coming off UC and the job only lasting a few weeks, then having to wait 6 weeks (or whatever), then you aint taking the work. Simplify it all and make work pay in reality. The long term lot have completely different needs. Those that might want to work lack skills and confidence. From first hand experience most of these people don't last long and there is only so much an employer can do.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Figures from year end 2017
Pensions £111b/42%
Family benefits/income support £46b/18%
Incapacity/disability 44b/16%
Personal social services/other 35b/13%
Housing benefit £25b/10%
Unemployment benefits £2b/1%

Not finding it easy to find equivalent figures for more recent. The above tell me the unemployed are less of a problem than the fact we spend so much on in work and housing.