creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

[Worthy4England]

Strongly disagree anyway. If they're all fit it's a very good (seam) attack.

But it's no use because they're never fit. And I'm yet to be convinced on spin!

Even if they were fully fit I don’t think they are very good or even good. Wood and Archer are both inconsistent short spell quicks but lack the length and line control that I think is needed.

Gus is probably the one you’d say could be a consistent test bowler.

Carse is a 4th seamer type. Woakes…not sure what to say about him but has to look of a total trundler these days.

It’s sort of inevitable post Broad and Anderson - two of the greatest fast bowlers ever - that we’d struggle a bit but I think we are struggling partly because we didn’t really have a plan. We are just flirting round from one quick to the next. Yea we’ve had some injuries and I agree with Worthy that there is not a lot we can do - we have what we have.

But this side is not going to beat the better sides imo especially away from home. The ashes is more or less guaranteed to be a loss because we’ve not got a bowler I think really who comes close to their attack in those conditions. Indeed the weather this year is highlighting how without favourable conditions several of our bowlers are reminiscent of the attacks of the early 90’s.

I'm sort of with you, but you're looking for short term high impact with Jofra and Wood. You're not looking for them to run down the day clock - whether we can afford to play both at once, I dunno. You'd sort of be hoping Stokes was doing some as well as an all-rounder...

[BWFC_Insane]

Strongly disagree anyway. If they're all fit it's a very good (seam) attack.

But it's no use because they're never fit. And I'm yet to be convinced on spin!

Even if they were fully fit I don’t think they are very good or even good. Wood and Archer are both inconsistent short spell quicks but lack the length and line control that I think is needed.

Gus is probably the one you’d say could be a consistent test bowler.

Carse is a 4th seamer type. Woakes…not sure what to say about him but has to look of a total trundler these days.

It’s sort of inevitable post Broad and Anderson - two of the greatest fast bowlers ever - that we’d struggle a bit but I think we are struggling partly because we didn’t really have a plan. We are just flirting round from one quick to the next. Yea we’ve had some injuries and I agree with Worthy that there is not a lot we can do - we have what we have.

But this side is not going to beat the better sides imo especially away from home. The ashes is more or less guaranteed to be a loss because we’ve not got a bowler I think really who comes close to their attack in those conditions. Indeed the weather this year is highlighting how without favourable conditions several of our bowlers are reminiscent of the attacks of the early 90’s.

I'm sort of with you, but you're looking for short term high impact with Jofra and Wood. You're not looking for them to run down the day clock - whether we can afford to play both at once, I dunno. You'd sort of be hoping Stokes was doing some as well as an all-rounder...

Yeah you are looking for short term impact but how many times will either threaten the stumps of the best batsmen? At their best sure I can see either being a handful in spells. But you need them to either take a lot of wickets in those spells or for others to do so and I don’t see either happening.

Neither are likely to be prolific in tests tbh.

[Worthy4England]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

[BWFC_Insane]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

[Worthy4England]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

Well no, but neither did Harmison and Jones! We won that series, didn't we?

[BWFC_Insane]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

Well no, but neither did Harmison and Jones! We won that series, didn't we?

2019? No it was drawn but they retained them.

[Prufrock]

A lot of that comes down to are they fit though.

Archer was unplayable that summer. And if fit he can run in off no run up and be lighting. Headingly test everyone remembers Stokes batting but he bowled 19 (?) overs straight the night before to knock them over. Wood is quick and skiddy.. But you're not getting it

[Worthy4England]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

Well no, but neither did Harmison and Jones! We won that series, didn't we?

2019? No it was drawn but they retained them.

Harmison retired in 2009, so maybe the radar is a bit out! The point I'm making is, our Ashes wins often have a "surprise package," or two in the bowling Dept.

2005, it was a combo of Harmison, Freddie, Hoggard and Jones, you may not consider three of them "world class."

2009 was Broad, Onions (remember him?), Swann and Jimmy (with Jimmy third on that list of wickets.)

2011 (Our last win down under), Jimmy series, but with Tremlett, Finn, Bresnan and Swann following closely.

2013 Swann was the leading wicket taker, with Jimmy & Broady all over 20 wickets - pretty rare to get 3 over 20. Bresnan was still in there

2015 was Broady with 21, next for England were Finn, Moeen, Stokes, Jimmy and Wood (in that order)

If asked about England greats, not sure people would naturally say Harmo, Hoggy, Jones, Onions, Tremlett, Finn, Bresnan were all world class, but they played important parts...Tremlett got 17 Ashes wickets. In 2011. It was his time to shine.

There's only one series where Jimmy and Broady dominated (in a win/retain) - that was 12 years back and Swann led the way.

Like you I struggle to see it with our current 4, but just maybe, Wood, Archer, Robinson could have a moment in the sun. I doubt it, but just maybe...

[Worthy4England]

A lot of that comes down to are they fit though.

Archer was unplayable that summer. And if fit he can run in off no run up and be lighting. Headingly test everyone remembers Stokes batting but he bowled 19 (?) overs straight the night before to knock them over. Wood is quick and skiddy.. But you're not getting it

Who's not getting what? Out of what we have, Stokes is absolutely vital to be firing as a bowler, if he isn't, we might be one short in the attack...

[BWFC_Insane]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

Well no, but neither did Harmison and Jones! We won that series, didn't we?

2019? No it was drawn but they retained them.

Harmison retired in 2009, so maybe the radar is a bit out! The point I'm making is, our Ashes wins often have a "surprise package," or two in the bowling Dept.

2005, it was a combo of Harmison, Freddie, Hoggard and Jones, you may not consider three of them "world class."

2009 was Broad, Onions (remember him?), Swann and Jimmy (with Jimmy third on that list of wickets.)

2011 (Our last win down under), Jimmy series, but with Tremlett, Finn, Bresnan and Swann following closely.

2013 Swann was the leading wicket taker, with Jimmy & Broady all over 20 wickets - pretty rare to get 3 over 20. Bresnan was still in there

2015 was Broady with 21, next for England were Finn, Moeen, Stokes, Jimmy and Wood (in that order)

If asked about England greats, not sure people would naturally say Harmo, Hoggy, Jones, Onions, Tremlett, Finn, Bresnan were all world class, but they played important parts...Tremlett got 17 Ashes wickets. In 2011. It was his time to shine.

There's only one series where Jimmy and Broady dominated (in a win/retain) - that was 12 years back and Swann led the way.

Like you I struggle to see it with our current 4, but just maybe, Wood, Archer, Robinson could have a moment in the sun. I doubt it, but just maybe...

You’ve sort of listed a load of series where we had one truly world class test bowler many of them more than one. Proven world class too.

2005 was a relatively new attack but Flintoff absolutely top class and it was also an incredibly rounded and balanced pace attack. So if we had that then maybe we wouldn’t need the same quality but I’m struggling to see it tbh. Hoggard could bowl long spells. Harmison was scary and Jones could swing it round corners. Flintoff had the magic and was also in his pomp.

The rest of the list is Broad, Swann (the biggest miss is maybe a world class wicket taking spinner) and Jimmy. Yeah there are others who could make up the numbers but I’m struggling to see any of our existing bowlers in the way these three were. Genuine test top level bowlers. For the wood/Archer hope (which I agree is what we’ve got) - they’ve hardly played much first class cricket let alone tests. And they aren’t young.

[Worthy4England]

But being a world class test bowler counts for diddly in any given series, unless you happen to perform in that series like a world class test bowler. 2005, Freddy was dominant with 24 wickets, but Jones was much lower on strike rate, for example. Hoggy was the 4th most used bowler. I agree with what you're saying about the abilities of Harmo, Jones and Hoggy, but I suspect if I'd just asked you to name England's world class bowlers the last 25 years - at least one of those wouldn't have made it (and maybe all three) - but it suits your argument - I get it.

2009 we had no one with an average under 30 and the lowest strike rate was Onions.

2011 for me wasn't all Jimmy. He took the most wickets, but he bowled twice as many overs (roughly) as Tremlett, Bresnan and Finn. Tremlett was probably the difference - 24 wickets Jimmy, 17 Tremlett but Tremlett's strike rate was much better and he only played 3 of the 5 matches, including 2 of the three wins. Finn and Bresnan played 2 and 3 matches each.

etc. etc.

If Jofra gets them jumping and they say go after (for example Woakes,) who then picks up wickets, Jofra is doing his job just fine, because they're playing on the daft lad. I don't in any way think we have a "world class attack, so I'm not sure what the argument is?

If "world class" is bandied around much more, it could become standard class.

[Worthy4England]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Archer didn't play the first test where we got absolutely mullered with Jimmy picking up a recurring calf injury, drew the second at Lords, had the Stokes and Leech test third - which will be remembered for Stokes and Leech, but Archer took 8-85. Dicked in the 4th, won pretty comfy at the Oval with Archer taking 6-62 in the first innings and none in the second.

[BWFC_Insane]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Yeah fair I also checked and my memory definitely wrong. But yeah if he was remotely proven I’d be ok I just think we are asking for the stars to align and we’ve gone there with much better attacks and been battered. I guess I’m just not feeling this England attack at the minute - it probably doesn’t help having to watch Bumrah and Siraj out bowl us in home conditions - normally we’d feel that we’d have the advantage here.

[Worthy4England]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Yeah fair I also checked and my memory definitely wrong. But yeah if he was remotely proven I’d be ok I just think we are asking for the stars to align and we’ve gone there with much better attacks and been battered. I guess I’m just not feeling this England attack at the minute - it probably doesn’t help having to watch Bumrah and Siraj out bowl us in home conditions - normally we’d feel that we’d have the advantage here.

Well good Sir, you might have spotted that my posts so far haven't really mentioned any of the current attack! I agree it's not very inspiring, albeit they're capable of a decent spell - Josh Tongue has the same number of wickets and a lower average than Siraj - with a strike rate much nearer Bumrah's and better than Siraj, but no doubt Bumrah's class.

The larger problems seem to be Woakes and Carse.

[BWFC_Insane]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Yeah fair I also checked and my memory definitely wrong. But yeah if he was remotely proven I’d be ok I just think we are asking for the stars to align and we’ve gone there with much better attacks and been battered. I guess I’m just not feeling this England attack at the minute - it probably doesn’t help having to watch Bumrah and Siraj out bowl us in home conditions - normally we’d feel that we’d have the advantage here.

Well good Sir, you might have spotted that my posts so far haven't really mentioned any of the current attack! I agree it's not very inspiring, albeit they're capable of a decent spell - Josh Tongue has the same number of wickets and a lower average than Siraj - with a strike rate much nearer Bumrah's and better than Siraj, but no doubt Bumrah's class.

The larger problems seem to be Woakes and Carse.

But how many of those Tongue wickets are the top order?

BBC calling the England attack ‘toothless’ and I think that’s fair - this is the issue in Australia when pitches are flat and ball softer - I don’t see anyone who will break partnerships.

[Worthy4England]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Yeah fair I also checked and my memory definitely wrong. But yeah if he was remotely proven I’d be ok I just think we are asking for the stars to align and we’ve gone there with much better attacks and been battered. I guess I’m just not feeling this England attack at the minute - it probably doesn’t help having to watch Bumrah and Siraj out bowl us in home conditions - normally we’d feel that we’d have the advantage here.

Well good Sir, you might have spotted that my posts so far haven't really mentioned any of the current attack! I agree it's not very inspiring, albeit they're capable of a decent spell - Josh Tongue has the same number of wickets and a lower average than Siraj - with a strike rate much nearer Bumrah's and better than Siraj, but no doubt Bumrah's class.

The larger problems seem to be Woakes and Carse.

But how many of those Tongue wickets are the top order?

BBC calling the England attack ‘toothless’ and I think that’s fair - this is the issue in Australia when pitches are flat and ball softer - I don’t see anyone who will break partnerships.

Both openers last innings? Shubman in the same test? Are you going to argue Bumrah's wasn't a decent 5 for, because it had 6, 8 and 10 in it?

I know you like to cite anyone who agrees with your POV to support the argument, but seriously - 1st Test, there were 5 runs difference on the first innings, second test when there were 200 runs in it we had six ducks, including 3 of the top 6. They all hit somewhere near average and it'd have been a lot closer.

[BWFC_Insane]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Yeah fair I also checked and my memory definitely wrong. But yeah if he was remotely proven I’d be ok I just think we are asking for the stars to align and we’ve gone there with much better attacks and been battered. I guess I’m just not feeling this England attack at the minute - it probably doesn’t help having to watch Bumrah and Siraj out bowl us in home conditions - normally we’d feel that we’d have the advantage here.

Well good Sir, you might have spotted that my posts so far haven't really mentioned any of the current attack! I agree it's not very inspiring, albeit they're capable of a decent spell - Josh Tongue has the same number of wickets and a lower average than Siraj - with a strike rate much nearer Bumrah's and better than Siraj, but no doubt Bumrah's class.

The larger problems seem to be Woakes and Carse.

But how many of those Tongue wickets are the top order?

BBC calling the England attack ‘toothless’ and I think that’s fair - this is the issue in Australia when pitches are flat and ball softer - I don’t see anyone who will break partnerships.

Both openers last innings? Shubman in the same test? Are you going to argue Bumrah's wasn't a decent 5 for, because it had 6, 8 and 10 in it?

I know you like to cite anyone who agrees with your POV to support the argument, but seriously - 1st Test, there were 5 runs difference on the first innings, second test when there were 200 runs in it we had six ducks, including 3 of the top 6. They all hit somewhere near average and it'd have been a lot closer.

I’m glad you are more optimistic about our attack than I am. I feel that we are probably way behind the top 4 test nations primarily because of our bowling.

But be very pleased if I was proven wrong because I genuinely like Archer and Wood - great characters and they were part of winning the World Cup. I just don’t think they are great test bowlers. If they go to Australia and shock me I will take it!

[Worthy4England]

I'm not. I keep saying that!

I might be a little less fatalistic about it, and if you have an off day with either bat or ball, you're going to struggle against a decent India side.

I don't see us getting much of a return with this 4, but it's not correct to suggest Tongue has been junior 1. He'd be doing fine in a better 4. If we got an Archer 22 series and a Wood 17 series (last series down under), Tongue does what Tongue does and Stokes chipping in, with Robinson available too who averages 22.9 mainly against your "Top 4," then maybe, just maybe...

But that's a lot of things to line up!

[Worthy4England]

We scored more for 5 than them. Bit of rarity, need to stop that tail wagging now!

[Prufrock]

A lot of that comes down to are they fit though.

Archer was unplayable that summer. And if fit he can run in off no run up and be lighting. Headingly test everyone remembers Stokes batting but he bowled 19 (?) overs straight the night before to knock them over. Wood is quick and skiddy.. But you're not getting it

Who's not getting what? Out of what we have, Stokes is absolutely vital to be firing as a bowler, if he isn't, we might be one short in the attack...

Sorry - you're not getting it out of them. At least not all at once.

Jof is world class, as good as anyone out there, maybe Cummins and Bumrah aside. And good that he's bowled a good few spells here, at pace, across a couple of days and seems ok. But you wouldn't want to put much on him being fit enough to play 3+ tests down under.