creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

[BWFC_Insane]

A lot of that comes down to are they fit though.

Archer was unplayable that summer. And if fit he can run in off no run up and be lighting. Headingly test everyone remembers Stokes batting but he bowled 19 (?) overs straight the night before to knock them over. Wood is quick and skiddy.. But you're not getting it

Who's not getting what? Out of what we have, Stokes is absolutely vital to be firing as a bowler, if he isn't, we might be one short in the attack...

Sorry - you're not getting it out of them. At least not all at once.

Jof is world class, as good as anyone out there, maybe Cummins and Bumrah aside. And good that he's bowled a good few spells here, at pace, across a couple of days and seems ok. But you wouldn't want to put much on him being fit enough to play 3+ tests down under.

He’s world class at red ball cricket based on what?

[Worthy4England]

A lot of that comes down to are they fit though.

Archer was unplayable that summer. And if fit he can run in off no run up and be lighting. Headingly test everyone remembers Stokes batting but he bowled 19 (?) overs straight the night before to knock them over. Wood is quick and skiddy.. But you're not getting it

Who's not getting what? Out of what we have, Stokes is absolutely vital to be firing as a bowler, if he isn't, we might be one short in the attack...

Sorry - you're not getting it out of them. At least not all at once.

Jof is world class, as good as anyone out there, maybe Cummins and Bumrah aside. And good that he's bowled a good few spells here, at pace, across a couple of days and seems ok. But you wouldn't want to put much on him being fit enough to play 3+ tests down under.

Three would do it! It's wing + prayer + celestial alignment + luck.

[Prufrock]

A lot of that comes down to are they fit though.

Archer was unplayable that summer. And if fit he can run in off no run up and be lighting. Headingly test everyone remembers Stokes batting but he bowled 19 (?) overs straight the night before to knock them over. Wood is quick and skiddy.. But you're not getting it

Who's not getting what? Out of what we have, Stokes is absolutely vital to be firing as a bowler, if he isn't, we might be one short in the attack...

Sorry - you're not getting it out of them. At least not all at once.

Jof is world class, as good as anyone out there, maybe Cummins and Bumrah aside. And good that he's bowled a good few spells here, at pace, across a couple of days and seems ok. But you wouldn't want to put much on him being fit enough to play 3+ tests down under.

He’s world class at red ball cricket based on what?

Having eyes in my head

[BWFC_Insane]

A lot of that comes down to are they fit though.

Archer was unplayable that summer. And if fit he can run in off no run up and be lighting. Headingly test everyone remembers Stokes batting but he bowled 19 (?) overs straight the night before to knock them over. Wood is quick and skiddy.. But you're not getting it

Who's not getting what? Out of what we have, Stokes is absolutely vital to be firing as a bowler, if he isn't, we might be one short in the attack...

Sorry - you're not getting it out of them. At least not all at once.

Jof is world class, as good as anyone out there, maybe Cummins and Bumrah aside. And good that he's bowled a good few spells here, at pace, across a couple of days and seems ok. But you wouldn't want to put much on him being fit enough to play 3+ tests down under.

He’s world class at red ball cricket based on what?

Having eyes in my head

He’s played 13 tests with an average of 31 and strike rate of 66. I’d suggest if you are claiming he’s world class based on that you are very selectively taking a very small sub sample of his career. I don’t think you can even make a call on such a small sample tbh. A lot of tests are about longevity and adaptability.

[Prufrock]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Yeah fair I also checked and my memory definitely wrong. But yeah if he was remotely proven I’d be ok I just think we are asking for the stars to align and we’ve gone there with much better attacks and been battered. I guess I’m just not feeling this England attack at the minute - it probably doesn’t help having to watch Bumrah and Siraj out bowl us in home conditions - normally we’d feel that we’d have the advantage here.

Well good Sir, you might have spotted that my posts so far haven't really mentioned any of the current attack! I agree it's not very inspiring, albeit they're capable of a decent spell - Josh Tongue has the same number of wickets and a lower average than Siraj - with a strike rate much nearer Bumrah's and better than Siraj, but no doubt Bumrah's class.

The larger problems seem to be Woakes and Carse.

But how many of those Tongue wickets are the top order?

BBC calling the England attack ‘toothless’ and I think that’s fair - this is the issue in Australia when pitches are flat and ball softer - I don’t see anyone who will break partnerships.

Both openers last innings? Shubman in the same test? Are you going to argue Bumrah's wasn't a decent 5 for, because it had 6, 8 and 10 in it?

I know you like to cite anyone who agrees with your POV to support the argument, but seriously - 1st Test, there were 5 runs difference on the first innings, second test when there were 200 runs in it we had six ducks, including 3 of the top 6. They all hit somewhere near average and it'd have been a lot closer.

I’m glad you are more optimistic about our attack than I am. I feel that we are probably way behind the top 4 test nations primarily because of our bowling.

But be very pleased if I was proven wrong because I genuinely like Archer and Wood - great characters and they were part of winning the World Cup. I just don’t think they are great test bowlers. If they go to Australia and shock me I will take it!

Based on what

[BWFC_Insane]

They just need to be good enough in one series on fast wickets to attain immortality. You probably don't forget Jofra getting the Aussies jumping at home.

Didn’t win it though did we? Nor did he take many wickets iirc.

I wanted to come back to this one, but thought I better check first. He took 22 wickets at an average of 20 and a strike rate of 42. That's not too shoddy in my book although it is actually his best series by some distance. We need that series again over the winter.

Yeah fair I also checked and my memory definitely wrong. But yeah if he was remotely proven I’d be ok I just think we are asking for the stars to align and we’ve gone there with much better attacks and been battered. I guess I’m just not feeling this England attack at the minute - it probably doesn’t help having to watch Bumrah and Siraj out bowl us in home conditions - normally we’d feel that we’d have the advantage here.

Well good Sir, you might have spotted that my posts so far haven't really mentioned any of the current attack! I agree it's not very inspiring, albeit they're capable of a decent spell - Josh Tongue has the same number of wickets and a lower average than Siraj - with a strike rate much nearer Bumrah's and better than Siraj, but no doubt Bumrah's class.

The larger problems seem to be Woakes and Carse.

But how many of those Tongue wickets are the top order?

BBC calling the England attack ‘toothless’ and I think that’s fair - this is the issue in Australia when pitches are flat and ball softer - I don’t see anyone who will break partnerships.

Both openers last innings? Shubman in the same test? Are you going to argue Bumrah's wasn't a decent 5 for, because it had 6, 8 and 10 in it?

I know you like to cite anyone who agrees with your POV to support the argument, but seriously - 1st Test, there were 5 runs difference on the first innings, second test when there were 200 runs in it we had six ducks, including 3 of the top 6. They all hit somewhere near average and it'd have been a lot closer.

I’m glad you are more optimistic about our attack than I am. I feel that we are probably way behind the top 4 test nations primarily because of our bowling.

But be very pleased if I was proven wrong because I genuinely like Archer and Wood - great characters and they were part of winning the World Cup. I just don’t think they are great test bowlers. If they go to Australia and shock me I will take it!

Based on what

Wood has 37 tests…..

[Prufrock]

No-one is talking about Wood...

[BWFC_Insane]

Crawley with some epic timewasting there. Indians can’t talk they’ve been slowing play down the whole series. But something generally has to be done. I can’t comprehend how slow play is - and how painful the ball change situation is.

Go to one change max per innings. If a ball is out of shape it’s tough. Find out why manufacturers can’t make a ball that isn’t battered to bits after ten overs. It’s absurd.

[BWFC_Insane]

No-one is talking about Wood...

I was. It’s in the post.

But Archer even if we say we don’t know - I could live with that. We simply don’t know if he’s poor average or great cos he’s barely played.

[Worthy4England]

Larwood played 21! Think we've heard of him You're missing the point. We don't need 4 world class bowlers, just 4 to have a moment in the sun

[Worthy4England]

Anyhow whilst we weren't talking about batting, they managed 83 and 84 for 5 in the last test and are now 98-4, that's no great shakes either!

[BWFC_Insane]

Anyhow whilst we weren't talking about batting, they managed 83 and 84 for 5 in the last test and are now 98-4, that's no great shakes either!

Because India have an attack putting the ball in the right areas consistently on a wareing track and making it talk. It’s excellent bowling and not just from Bumrah.

If ours are any good they will be able to do the same but if they are wayward and sluggish as they were yesterday then the result I’m afraid will be the same.

We genuinely could have been 3 down in the first ten overs of the days as they were just bowling that well. Some wayward shots but I think mainly the pressure of the bowling needs praising. It’s been excellent and they were clearly fired up.

[Worthy4England]

Anyhow whilst we weren't talking about batting, they managed 83 and 84 for 5 in the last test and are now 98-4, that's no great shakes either!

Because India have an attack putting the ball in the right areas consistently on a wareing track and making it talk. It’s excellent bowling and not just from Bumrah.

If ours are any good they will be able to do the same but if they are wayward and sluggish as they were yesterday then the result I’m afraid will be the same.

We genuinely could have been 3 down in the first ten overs of the days as they were just bowling that well. Some wayward shots but I think mainly the pressure of the bowling needs praising. It’s been excellent and they were clearly fired up.

Yes - but if you have aspirations, you can't consistently be 4 down, under a 100. Sure, it's good bowling, but also inconsistent batting, showing a lack of discipline.

[BWFC_Insane]

Anyhow whilst we weren't talking about batting, they managed 83 and 84 for 5 in the last test and are now 98-4, that's no great shakes either!

Because India have an attack putting the ball in the right areas consistently on a wareing track and making it talk. It’s excellent bowling and not just from Bumrah.

If ours are any good they will be able to do the same but if they are wayward and sluggish as they were yesterday then the result I’m afraid will be the same.

We genuinely could have been 3 down in the first ten overs of the days as they were just bowling that well. Some wayward shots but I think mainly the pressure of the bowling needs praising. It’s been excellent and they were clearly fired up.

Yes - but if you have aspirations, you can't consistently be 4 down, under a 100. Sure, it's good bowling, but also inconsistent batting, showing a lack of discipline.

Certainly question marks over the top 3 for me. But far less an issue than our bowling attack at least for now.

[Prufrock]

Question marks over Crawley and Pope for sure. Surely Bethell has to get a go in the series.

[BWFC_Insane]

Root and Brook have both played utterly dreadful shots to give their wickets away. Very hard to explain either or justify either.

[BWFC_Insane]

The thing is this pitch is pretty difficult to bat on. Any half decent attack would have a side in this sort of position.

We can see whether Englands attack makes for half decent in the most favourable of conditions later. There is something in it for the quicks with variable bounce and swing and seam and something for the spinners too. So let’s find out how good or not this lot are.

[Worthy4England]

Anyhow whilst we weren't talking about batting, they managed 83 and 84 for 5 in the last test and are now 98-4, that's no great shakes either!

Because India have an attack putting the ball in the right areas consistently on a wareing track and making it talk. It’s excellent bowling and not just from Bumrah.

If ours are any good they will be able to do the same but if they are wayward and sluggish as they were yesterday then the result I’m afraid will be the same.

We genuinely could have been 3 down in the first ten overs of the days as they were just bowling that well. Some wayward shots but I think mainly the pressure of the bowling needs praising. It’s been excellent and they were clearly fired up.

Yes - but if you have aspirations, you can't consistently be 4 down, under a 100. Sure, it's good bowling, but also inconsistent batting, showing a lack of discipline.

Certainly question marks over the top 3 for me. But far less an issue than our bowling attack at least for now.

Duckett is probably safe for a bit. I don't really rate less than 100-5 as a small issue, irrespective of how good or bad the bowling is. They're independent problems, apart from a one off on a really tricky track. Really good international bowling is what really good international batsmen have to face.

[BWFC_Insane]

Anyhow whilst we weren't talking about batting, they managed 83 and 84 for 5 in the last test and are now 98-4, that's no great shakes either!

Because India have an attack putting the ball in the right areas consistently on a wareing track and making it talk. It’s excellent bowling and not just from Bumrah.

If ours are any good they will be able to do the same but if they are wayward and sluggish as they were yesterday then the result I’m afraid will be the same.

We genuinely could have been 3 down in the first ten overs of the days as they were just bowling that well. Some wayward shots but I think mainly the pressure of the bowling needs praising. It’s been excellent and they were clearly fired up.

Yes - but if you have aspirations, you can't consistently be 4 down, under a 100. Sure, it's good bowling, but also inconsistent batting, showing a lack of discipline.

Certainly question marks over the top 3 for me. But far less an issue than our bowling attack at least for now.

Duckett is probably safe for a bit. I don't really rate less than 100-5 as a small issue, irrespective of how good or bad the bowling is. They're independent problems, apart from a one off on a really tricky track. Really good international bowling is what really good international batsmen have to face.

Not sure though - sometimes you will be bowled out by a brilliant attack in tough conditions. If you can’t do the same you are always in trouble. Dont we have number one and two batsmen in the rankings? I mean I don’t think it’s without its issues but our bowling is a lot lot worse and a big problem against the best sides.

[Prufrock]

Think we're short here but not by anywhere near are much as the commentary team who thought you'd need 280-300. India big favourites but it won't be easy to get them. Not a pitch where anyone has scored quickly and it's got demons in it now. Big innings for Bashir coming up.