Middle East Crisis

white blood · Post by **white blood** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:54 am

Like most news stories regards the middle east, I don’t pay much attension when things first kick off with petty conflict and terrorist bombings etc in the news most days. however, a few days in we see air strikes, mortar fire, and mass evacuation we realise the situation is more serious. I have been reading through the news pages on bbci to piece together what is actually the matter with these folk, I have a good idea but can someone please explain to me in simple terms what the crack is with this crisis in the Middle East, why the Israelis and the Lebanese are in conflict, and what is got to do with Gaza, Syria & Iran?

Cheers

Zulus Thousand of em · Post by **Zulus Thousand of em** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:02 am

I suggest you start here - and then diversify. Allow yourself a bit of time though!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Conflicts

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:03 am

Seems to me the simple explanation is a power struggle.

Over there, the leaders issue orders to bomb and shoot the opposition. You see they aren't as civilised as us. Our leaders just try to get photographs of the opposition with rent boys and call girls then leak them to the News of the World. That way, no one gets killed and the buildings are still intact when the new party moves in. Effectively, it might all be called "The Never Ending Story". It started pre-bible and it's been going on ever since. That's called "progress".

Zulus Thousand of em · Post by **Zulus Thousand of em** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:04 am

On reflection, start from here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:30 am

I don't understand it all... However, my friend has an aunt and 4 cousins who live in Israel, her aunt had married an Israeli converted to Judaism and settled on a kibbutz. In 2003 her aunt and middle cousin (a 14 year old girl) were stopped in their car at checkpoint on their way into town.

A Palestinian gunman stepped out and riddled the car with bullets killing them both.

I guess it takes a big man to kill in cold blood a woman and a child.

Bwfc in the bloodline · Post by **Bwfc in the bloodline** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:11 am

[quote="Gertie"]A Palestinian gunman stepped out and riddled the car with bullets killing them both.
quote]

Isreal probably replied by blowing up a small Palastine village. And then destroyed the local power station.

Bwfc in the bloodline · Post by **Bwfc in the bloodline** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:16 am

Ariel Sharon, (known for putting fires out by pouring petrol on them).

Is he alive or dead, there were reports a while back he was in poor health. Sounded like he was on his death bed, the Isreali's denied he was dead, but Sharon remained in coma or something. Since then there has been no news of him??

Anyone know how he is?

Apathy · Post by **Apathy** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:31 am

Its all very complicated, but basically it is a battle between two religions.

The Jews who have settled in their promised land and will never leave, and will do all in their power to protect themselves. and
The Muslims who dislike Jews and they want their land back.

I don't think this conflict will ever end. There may be a few years of relative peace (i.e. not all out war) here and there, but the Muslim fundies will never let it lie. They are IMO just provoking Israel into attacking Lebannon, in the hope that all the other Muslim/Arab countries join in help to get rid of the state of Israel.

knobpolisher · Post by **knobpolisher** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:48 am

They are ALL religious bigots and will never be any different. When 9/11 occured i flew out to ABU-dhabi 2 days later and met a palestinian who was convinced that the US had deliberately flown planes into the twin towers so they could have an excuse to invade afghanistan and Iraq. She would not be swayed from this stance, so sad to say when you have people of that mentality there will never be peace in the middle east. I have actually read up on the israel palestinian thing , some time ago , but believe you me some of the things the israelis have done to capture land are beyond belief. Whilst there is no excuse to kill a 14 year old and a mother some of the stuff Israel did in the 1950's makes that look like a slap on the wrist.

white blood · Post by **white blood** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:03 pm

like what???

Zulus Thousand of em · Post by **Zulus Thousand of em** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:12 pm

white blood wrote:like what???

Have you got stuck into the two links yet (and then gone further)? Make up your own mind, don't let others tell you who is right or wrong.

sluffy · Post by **sluffy** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:17 pm

white blood wrote:Like most news stories regards the middle east, I don’t pay much attension when things first kick off with petty conflict and terrorist bombings etc in the news most days. however, a few days in we see air strikes, mortar fire, and mass evacuation we realise the situation is more serious. I have been reading through the news pages on bbci to piece together what is actually the matter with these folk, I have a good idea but can someone please explain to me in simple terms what the crack is with this crisis in the Middle East, why the Israelis and the Lebanese are in conflict, and what is got to do with Gaza, Syria & Iran?

Cheers

This is how I understand it -

Remember Moses and how in he led the slaves from Egypt - well once they stopped the wandering about they settled down and became the founders of Israel - 'The promised land'

Anyway years go by and their lands were conquered by other people. The Jews were taken away from Israel - so they became a people without a country.

Because of this they were always 'outsider's' in other people's country's and often discriminated against.

Anyway this went on until about a 100 years ago. By that time Jews had started to drift back to Israel - which had now been 'owned' by the Arabs that lived their for the last 2,000 years!

Britain by this time had become powerful in the Middle East - remember our Empire and all that? Well the British Government decided in principle to give an area of land to the Jews so that they could have their own country once again (This was called the Balfour Declaration).

Anyway by the end of the second World War more and more Jews throughout the world started to see Israel as their rightful home land - and a place where they would be free from persecution. However that did not please the Arabs who lived there!

The United Nations declared that an area of land should be given to the Jews and this became Israel as we now know it in 1948.

Well as one could imagine the Arabs were none to pleased about that and more or less declared war on Israel. There was a big battle in 1948 and another in 1967 (known as the 6 day war) and a third in 1973 (known as Yom Kippur).

During these wars the Israel's actually 'captured' more land - some from Syria (The Golan Heights), Some from Egypt (The Gaza strip) and some from Jordan (The West Bank).

Anyway over the last 30 or years since then diplomatic efforts have seemingly calmed things down a great deal between Israel and its neighbouring countries but there are still many 'groups' who still want to get rid of the Jews and they fight them by terrorist means - such as suicide bombers.

Lebanon as been a sort of home for these 'groups' over the years and what has started the most recent troubles is that one of the groups 'captured' an Israeli soldier.

Israel more or less said give him back or else.... and the rest is what you see on the news.

I hope that this is a fair and impartial summary of the historical events - at least it is intended as such.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:22 pm

To put this into perspective a little:

Not many years ago, seven different religious orders were installed in the Temple of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. As far as I know, they are still there. One day, one of the brothers of one order took a chair onto the roof. In order to find shade, he moved it a couple of feet over the line of another territorial patch. An argument ensued, knives and weapons appeared and, if my memory serves me correctly, eight guys were killed. These are religious orders fighting over territory on the roof of one building. Doesn't tke much immagination to visualise what happens when politics become involved. Violence begets violence and so it goes on. As I said, it started pre-bible and is still going on.

superjohnmcginlay · Post by **superjohnmcginlay** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:24 pm

sluffy wrote:
This is how I understand it -

Remember Moses and how in he led the slaves from Egypt - well once they stopped the wandering about they settled down and became the founders of Israel - 'The promised land'

Anyway years go by and their lands were conquered by other people. The Jews were taken away from Israel - so they became a people without a country.

Because of this they were always 'outsider's' in other people's country's and often discriminated against.

Anyway this went on until about a 100 years ago. By that time Jews had started to drift back to Israel - which had now been 'owned' by the Arabs that lived their for the last 2,000 years!

Britain by this time had become powerful in the Middle East - remember our Empire and all that? Well the British Government decided in principle to give an area of land to the Jews so that they could have their own country once again (This was called the Balfour Declaration).

Anyway by the end of the second World War more and more Jews throughout the world started to see Israel as their rightful home land - and a place where they would be free from persecution. However that did not please the Arabs who lived there!

The United Nations declared that an area of land should be given to the Jews and this became Israel as we now know it in 1948.

Well as one could imagine the Arabs were none to pleased about that and more or less declared war on Israel. There was a big battle in 1948 and another in 1967 (known as the 6 day war) and a third in 1973 (known as Yom Kippur).

During these wars the Israel's actually 'captured' more land - some from Syria (The Golan Heights), Some from Egypt (The Gaza strip) and some from Jordan (The West Bank).

Anyway over the last 30 or years since then diplomatic efforts have seemingly calmed things down a great deal between Israel and its neighbouring countries but there are still many 'groups' who still want to get rid of the Jews and they fight them by terrorist means - such as suicide bombers.

Lebanon as been a sort of home for these 'groups' over the years and what has started the most recent troubles is that one of the groups 'captured' an Israeli soldier.

Israel more or less said give him back or else.... and the rest is what you see on the news.

I hope that this is a fair and impartial summary of the historical events - at least it is intended as such.

It was 2 soldiers - they dug under an Israli outpost. 1 had already been taken in Gaza.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:25 pm

Spot on Sluffy. Good input.

white blood · Post by **white blood** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:36 pm

Zulus! Thousands of 'em! wrote:
white blood wrote:like what???
Have you got stuck into the two links yet (and then gone further)? Make up your own mind, don't let others tell you who is right or wrong.

I have read through the links thanks - god bless Wikipedia! i now have a good understanding of the conflict and its history. one thing that bugs me though is why the Lebonese government and military dont do anything to prevent the actions of the Hezballah? or has the Hezballah pretty much taken over the whole of Lebanon?

the other post was just me after some gory details about what Israel did in the 1950's that makes these modern actions seem like a slap on the wrist?

Harry Genshaw · Post by **Harry Genshaw** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:38 pm

Theres certainly right and wrong on both sides but generally reporting of the situation favours Israel e.g Palestinians are seen as terrorists but no mention of state sponsored terrorism by Israel. The Oslo agreement meant the Palestinians having their own state in Gaza and the West Bank but Israel have consistently fudged the issue and in Gaza have practically set up the Palestinians to fail. The whole area is nothing more than an open air prison with Israel controlling all the borders and restricting access both into and out of it.

The separation (or apartheid) wall thats currently under construction on the West Bank actually cuts into approximately 45% of Oslo agreed Palestinian land splitting families and farmers from fertile land. 90% of the water resources go to the illegal settlements whilst the Palestinian majority get the remaining 10%. Building of new settlements is illegal and there have been countless UN resolutions condemning Israel (none supported by the US) but they are still being built and expanded today.

As BWFC in the Bloodline asked - How is Sharon? Personally I hope the bastard dies a painful death because its nothing less than he deserves after what hes inflicted on thousands of innocent people.

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:39 pm

Apathy wrote:Its all very complicated, but basically it is a battle between two religions.

no it's not - it's basically a conflict about land - religion is the clothes that the conflict is dressed up in...

sluffy · Post by **sluffy** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:44 pm

Bwfc in the bloodline wrote:Ariel Sharon, (known for putting fires out by pouring petrol on them).

Is he alive or dead, there were reports a while back he was in poor health. Sounded like he was on his death bed, the Isreali's denied he was dead, but Sharon remained in coma or something. Since then there has been no news of him??

Anyone know how he is?

Still in a coma I believe.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:31 pm

thebish wrote:
Apathy wrote:Its all very complicated, but basically it is a battle between two religions.
no it's not - it's basically a conflict about land - religion is the clothes that the conflict is dressed up in...

Very true bish. Christianity and the Bible have at least adapted somewhat to rules made 2000 years aga. The Torah and the Koran are in a timelock, using the word of God to justify violence and making no attempt to allow for the passage of time. The jawbone of an ass has been replaced by a baseball bat, but the principles remain the same. Just my opinion.