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cowdrill
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Post by cowdrill » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:54 pm

christmas is nothing more than a disgusting capatalist orgy of greed



makes me wanna puke



roll on January
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Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:56 pm

cowdrill wrote:christmas is nothing more than a disgusting capatalist orgy of greed



makes me wanna puke



roll on January
That's coz no-one ever gets you owt, is that! :mrgreen:
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Post by cowdrill » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:57 pm

THATS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT




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Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:12 pm

Dujon wrote:No, TANGO, no.

I know from your previous writings that you are a devout Christian. NOTE: this is not a personal attack. Never thought it would be Dujon. Hope none of it is from any direction.

Christians in our society have no more right to special privileges (e.g. postage stamp images) than does any other faith. Certainly our societies (meaning yours and mine) were founded and continue to run on Christian principles - which are shared by others by the way - but, at least in current times, pride themselves on being secular. If what you are asking were extended to other religions (Islam, Judaism, the Rainbow Serpent) where would it all end? There's nothing wrong with a few reindeer and Santa Claus plus the odd robin and snowflake, surely?

Course not. All part of tradition and the St Nicholas myth and the time of year. Santa Claus is great for kids, it snows in winter and we have a friendly robin in our garden.

Perhaps your tilt should be at the fact that the winter season is celebrated at all. ????
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Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:15 pm

communistworkethic wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote: Such is life. Anything is acceptable as longs as you remeber to add "in my opinion" Passed a little time. :mrgreen:
But it's not is it? "IMO" is no excuse for racism, for example. And Religion hangs it's hat on that "well it's our opinion and we have a right to that as it's our religion no matter how odd" as an excuse for intolerance, hatred and war and so on.
Was referring to this debate.
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Post by Dujon » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:56 pm

TANGODANCER wrote: What, you have windmills in the outback? :mrgreen:
You betcha, mate. The best in the world - known universally as 'The Southern Cross' (brand name)

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Post by mofgimmers » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:50 am

The thing that puzzles me about christmas is that people often kick a stink up about it on a yearly basis. Y'know... we're not allowed to have [insert thing here] at Asda! It's PC gone mad! All the while, having a great Pagan cock in the corner of the room, which, if memory serves me right, isn't altogether Christian.

I get mixed messages from the whole thing to be honest.
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Post by Henrik's fan club » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:04 am

cowdrill wrote:christmas is nothing more than a disgusting capatalist orgy of greed



makes me wanna puke



roll on January
A fellow Christmas hater! Wanna help me steal christmas while talking in Dr Seuss-style rhyme? :mrgreen:
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Post by communistworkethic » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:46 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
communistworkethic wrote:and nobody is stopping you from celebrating how you want.

But to suggest a non-religious body should follow you in that is flawed.

What, there are no Christian postal workers out there. Well, I'll be... And here's me thinking the Queen went to church on Christmas Day.

I don't want to celebrate the holiday on a religious basis, why should I have to have stamps with it on again this year? You had your version last year, it's my turn. Why is that wrong
Like I said at the start: It's Christmas. Xmas is just a denial of it. All in my opinion of course.
whether there are christian employees or not is irrelevant, there are muslim, sikh and hindu ones too. The Post Office is an organisation that delivers the mail nothing more, to force it use religious iconography is wrong on every level. Church and State are seperate, church and post office on different planets.
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Post by InsaneApache » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:45 am

OK I'll wade in with some thoughts.

The festival on the 25th December has nothing at all to do with Christianity and everything to do with the Feast of Sol Invicta, the Unconquered Sun. It was kept by the early Christian Emperors to placate the populace, who obviously liked a good feast and piss up.

So where's the picture of the old god Sol? I feel swizzed.

For example:

Timing of Saturnalia

varied during the course of Roman history.
began as feast days for Saturn (December 17) and Ops (December 19).
with Julian calendar, Saturnalia on December 17 & 18; Opalia on December 19 & 20.
during the empire, extended to a week (December 17-23); longer with other holidays.

Associated holiday festivals

Consualia, end of sowing season festival (December 15).
Dies Juvenalis, Coming of Age for Young Men (mid-December).
Feast of Sol Invicta, the Unconquered Sun, set in 274 A. D. (December 25).
Brumalia, Winter Solstice on pre-Julian calendar (December 25).
Christmas (December 25), Christians move Christ's birthday to this date in 336 A.D.
Janus Day and Beginning of Calendar Year (January 1), set in 153 B.C.; again in 45 B.C.
Compitalia, blessing of the fields rural festival (January 3-5).

Deities honored around Winter Solsticetime

Saturn - God of Agriculture; merged with the Greek Cronos.
Ops - Goddes of Plenty; Mother Earth; partner to Saturn and Consus.
Sol Invicta - Sun God; connected with the Persian Mithra, honored by Roman soldiers.
Consus - God of Storebin of Harvested Grain.
Juventas - Goddess of Young Manhood; related to Greek Hebe of Youthful Beauty.
Janus - God of Beginnings and Gates; Solar God of Daybreak; Creator God.

Celebrations included

merry-making
rest and relaxation
connections with family and friends
celebrating beginning of Solar year
prayers for protection of Winter crops
honoring Deities

Legacies of Saturnalia in contemporary holiday celebrations

Religious Rituals -- joining in spiritual community to honor the Divine.
Honored Figures -- Santa and Father Time -- Saturn; Holy Mother -- Ops.
Sacred Flames -- candles lit and new fires kindled to represent new Solar year.
Greens -- Holly given with gifts, homes decorated with wreaths and garlands.
Time Off from Work -- government, schools, businesses closed; multiple days off.
Peace -- dispensing of punishments suspended and courts closed; wars ceased.
Relaxing with Family and Friends -- renewing bonds, sharing celebration.
Gift Giving -- dolls to children, candles to friends; fruit symbols representing increase.
Feasting -- sharing food with family and friends; on-going eating and drinking.
Helping Less Fortunate -- class distinctions suspended; food for all; masters waiting on servants.
Exhuberant Play -- masquerades, gaming, gambling, mock king, jokes, partying, letting loose.
Paper Hats -- soft hats (pilei) worn at Saturnalia banquets to signify informality.
Dancing in the New Solar Year -- music and dancing.

Sound familiar?
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Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:20 am

communistworkethic wrote: [whether there are christian employees or not is irrelevant, there are muslim, sikh and hindu ones too. The Post Office is an organisation that delivers the mail nothing more, to force it use religious iconography is wrong on every level. Church and State are seperate, church and post office on different planets.
As a facilities manager, running a mailroom is part of my job. I know exactly how much mileage the Royal Mail make out of Christmas. Unless I'm very much mistaken also, the head of the Church of England is HM The Queen. The point of issue is not Royal Mail procedure on delivering mail, ( a good and basically cheap service, although they are currently having a field day over the confusion "Pricing in Proportion" is causing) but the topic of Christmas. They are happy enough to wade in there with lots of ho-ho-ho's, but at their own discretion. Nothing new there. Not sure where the topic of racism needs to come into a major Christian festival, or it's defence by Christians.

Agree with Cowdrill on one aspect, the whole thing has become just a commercial rip-off all round, with the root source conveniently ignored whenever it suits. My views aren't likely to change anything, it just seemed like a good debate topic, as I stated at the onset. Like anything that involves religion, money or politics, it will be forever controversial.
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Post by communistworkethic » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:33 am

Don't know where you've got race from TD, nobody had mentioned it until you did. Religion and race are two different issues.

Banks don't put God on money, no fuss about that, so why the fuss about stamps?

We're a secular society and religion should be kept out of transaction such as making postal deliveries.
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Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:34 am

[quote="InsaneApache"]OK I'll wade in with some thoughts.

The festival on the 25th December has nothing at all to do with Christianity and everything to do with the Feast of Sol Invicta, the Unconquered Sun. It was kept by the early Christian Emperors to placate the populace, who obviously liked a good feast and piss up.

So where's the picture of the old god Sol? I feel swizzed.

For example:

Timing of Saturnalia

varied during the course of Roman history.
began as feast days for Saturn (December 17) and Ops (December 19).
with Julian calendar, Saturnalia on December 17 & 18; Opalia on December 19 & 20.
during the empire, extended to a week (December 17-23); longer with other holidays.

Associated holiday festivals

Consualia, end of sowing season festival (December 15).
Dies Juvenalis, Coming of Age for Young Men (mid-December).
Feast of Sol Invicta, the Unconquered Sun, set in 274 A. D. (December 25).
Brumalia, Winter Solstice on pre-Julian calendar (December 25).
Christmas (December 25), Christians move Christ's birthday to this date in 336 A.D.
Janus Day and Beginning of Calendar Year (January 1), set in 153 B.C.; again in 45 B.C.
Compitalia, blessing of the fields rural festival (January 3-5).

Deities honored around Winter Solsticetime

Saturn - God of Agriculture; merged with the Greek Cronos.
Ops - Goddes of Plenty; Mother Earth; partner to Saturn and Consus.
Sol Invicta - Sun God; connected with the Persian Mithra, honored by Roman soldiers.
Consus - God of Storebin of Harvested Grain.
Juventas - Goddess of Young Manhood; related to Greek Hebe of Youthful Beauty.
Janus - God of Beginnings and Gates; Solar God of Daybreak; Creator God.

Celebrations included

merry-making
rest and relaxation
connections with family and friends
celebrating beginning of Solar year
prayers for protection of Winter crops
honoring Deities

Legacies of Saturnalia in contemporary holiday celebrations

Religious Rituals -- joining in spiritual community to honor the Divine.
Honored Figures -- Santa and Father Time -- Saturn; Holy Mother -- Ops.
Sacred Flames -- candles lit and new fires kindled to represent new Solar year.
Greens -- Holly given with gifts, homes decorated with wreaths and garlands.
Time Off from Work -- government, schools, businesses closed; multiple days off.
Peace -- dispensing of punishments suspended and courts closed; wars ceased.
Relaxing with Family and Friends -- renewing bonds, sharing celebration.
Gift Giving -- dolls to children, candles to friends; fruit symbols representing increase.
Feasting -- sharing food with family and friends; on-going eating and drinking.
Helping Less Fortunate -- class distinctions suspended; food for all; masters waiting on servants.
Exhuberant Play -- masquerades, gaming, gambling, mock king, jokes, partying, letting loose.
Paper Hats -- soft hats (pilei) worn at Saturnalia banquets to signify informality.
Dancing in the New Solar Year -- music and dancing.

Sound familiar?[/quote]

Of course it sound familiar IA, it's well documented history and can be found on any historical internet search. Christians would hardly figure in it before Christ was born. They were still in the minority when they instituted it as his birthday celebration. Fact remains, it was, and is, just that to all Christians. All the good aspects aside(celebrating, gifts, helping others etc) how many people (historians apart) know about the rest, never mind celebrate any of it. A Google search is hardly a religious defence, more an unbelievers views. No one is disputing the time of year, only the meanings to those who believe. How many Roman god worshippers or Sun worshippers do you know? (course you can always quote new-age travellers who visit Stonehenge for a mariuana and booze session) :mrgreen:
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Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:38 am

communistworkethic wrote:Don't know where you've got race from TD, nobody had mentioned it until you did. Religion and race are two different issues.

Banks don't put God on money, no fuss about that, so why the fuss about stamps?

We're a secular society and religion should be kept out of transaction such as making postal deliveries.
"But it's not is it? "IMO" is no excuse for racism, for example. And Religion hangs it's hat on that "well it's our opinion and we have a right to that as it's our religion no matter how odd" as an excuse for intolerance, hatred and war and so on.

Your words?

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Post by CrazyHorse » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:43 am

I think the point is that everyone is entitled to celebrate Christmas how they feel fit; whether that means going to midnight mass, doing a 'National Lampoons' with the house decorations, getting pished on sherry or simply sending cards to friends and family. This includes services and private companies alike. The postal services should be able to celebrate it in its own way as it sees fit; lets face it - it's one of the busiest times of the year for the postal workers.

The problems arise when people are told how they can and more importantly can't (in fact even more importantly believe they are told they can't via the powers that be at The Daily Mail) celebrate it. No one like to be told what they can and can't to.

Just my opinion.
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Post by communistworkethic » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:47 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
communistworkethic wrote:Don't know where you've got race from TD, nobody had mentioned it until you did. Religion and race are two different issues.

Banks don't put God on money, no fuss about that, so why the fuss about stamps?

We're a secular society and religion should be kept out of transaction such as making postal deliveries.
"But it's not is it? "IMO" is no excuse for racism, for example. And Religion hangs it's hat on that "well it's our opinion and we have a right to that as it's our religion no matter how odd" as an excuse for intolerance, hatred and war and so on.

Your words?

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Post by thebish » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:53 am

Iwonder if I might (respectfully) suggest that this argument would find a great home and more willing participants (thus expanding the fun) on

alt.rec.pointlessargumentsovernothing.uk

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Post by InsaneApache » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:02 am

Of course it sound familiar IA, it's well documented history and can be found on any historical internet search. Christians would hardly figure in it before Christ was born. They were still in the minority when they instituted it as his birthday celebration. Fact remains, it was, and is, just that to all Christians. All the good aspects aside(celebrating, gifts, helping others etc) how many people (historians apart) know about the rest, never mind celebrate any of it. A Google search is hardly a religious defence, more an unbelievers views. No one is disputing the time of year, only the meanings to those who believe. How many Roman god worshippers or Sun worshippers do you know? (course you can always quote new-age travellers who visit Stonehenge for a mariuana and booze session)
My point being that the 25th of December has got absolutley nothing to do with Christmas or Christians. At the first Council of Nicea certain steps were taken that set, amongst others the time that Easter should be celebrated. It was also decided which books should be included into the New Testament. What! You mean the Bible has been edited! :shock:

A lot of the teachings of Christianity come from Zoroastra.
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam
http://www.comparative-religion.com/zoroastrianism/

Looks like those them there early Christians were very busy boys pinching ideas from older religions.

And then there's the myth of the flood. I'll let you 'google' that...you may be shocked and surprised.
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Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:07 am

thebish wrote:Iwonder if I might (respectfully) suggest that this argument would find a great home and more willing participants (thus expanding the fun) on

alt.rec.pointlessargumentsovernothing.uk
Not an argument Bish, just a friendly seasonal snowball fight. :mrgreen:
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Post by thebish » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:10 am

the "season" for snowballs is usually one day in late february isn't it?

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