Here we go again

[Batman]

God bless ye merry gentlemen.......

[thebish]

Christmas (December 25), Christians move Christ's birthday to this date in 336 A.D.

sigh....

yes, Apache - the date - hardly a controversial scoop - I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise... but the "traditions" that are observed today - or that Christians are supposed to have claimed - simply are not all Pagan.. and many of them do have a specifically Christian (not Pagan) origin. Many of them that aren't either Christian or Pagan are Dickensian or American...

if I'm missing something - perhaps you'd do me the kindness of listing all the "traditions" we celebrate as Christmas traditions that have a Pagan origin - there really aren't that many...

Maybe you're Raven's spokesman - the Ricky Sbraglia-voice to the BBC...

but Raven said, "all the traditions at Christmas have nowt to do with Christianity" - that's the statement I am disputing. Do you think it's true, then?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Well, I have to say I was a little surprised at some of the things you said, Mummy. I think characterizing a religion, any religion, as bad or evil is simply wrong. The interpretations of some religious leaders may be highly questionable, the actions of some members may be easily condemned, but to generalize it to a whole religion is not sensible (or helpful) IMHO.

I have made no such characterization.

I have said that in my own small experience of life I have observed more instances of muslims being unpleasant for religious reasons than I have for members of other religions. In my opinion, that is factually and statistically incontravertable. I have also said that the likelihood is that my experience is not a fair sample by which to judge all muslims.

Ah, but are they factually and statistically incontrovertible? Gotcha!
You did say things like you had "impression that Islam is an unusually unpleasant religion" which I find somewhat pejorative.

I said: "All I am saying is that somehow I have been left with the impression that Islam is an unusually unpleasant religion. Perhaps this is grossly unfair, and my experience is not representative of the religion as a whole at all, but my experience is what it is!"

I think that the fact that I go out of my why to state the possible limitations of my own personal impressions secures me an acquittal on a charge of making a broad pejorative characterization.


And yes, that was an embarrassing mistake/typo.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Fair enough, Mummy, though I do hope you meet some devout Muslims who are the salt of the earth, as I have. For me, an atheist, it is people who cause problems, not religions, but I expect you might agree there.

[Gertie]

I would charaterise myself as having faith. Been brought up as C of E whilst my grandfather was Russian Orthodox, who celebrate a kind of Christmas in January - bonus!!!

Whilst I don't attend church with much regularity, I used to more when I worked as a Guide leader to the Girl Guide Association on Markland Hill and would go to church parade the first Sunday of every month. I haven't been for a while. My dad is a part of his church in Carlisle - he only recently got confirmed there in his 50s and I still haven't taken confirmation. I go to church for weddings, christenings and have several godchildren - which I don't think I could have accepted if I didn't have some kind of faith

I know that lots of people here have stated that they find religion evil and full of doom. I've found my belief to be of comfort at times. I'm not holier than thou, I've made mistakes in my life, and continue to do so.... But I can't bring myself to believe that this is all entirely by accident... I may be stupid, I may be a crackpot. I might find out the day I die that nothing awaits me and I rot in a hole in the ground. I just personally believe.

I've also got pals who follow Islam, a few who are catholic and some Jewish friends bizarrely they aren't nutters. Again this is entirely my personal experience and not representative of these religions as a whole.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Fair enough, Mummy, though I do hope you meet some devout Muslims who are the salt of the earth, as I have.

So do I. I don't think I have met one devout muslim who is a student here.

For me, an atheist, it is people who cause problems, not religions, but I expect you might agree there.

Well yes, but it would be strange for me not to given that I view all religions as entirely human constructs.

[Bruce Rioja]

but fortunately you don't have to lick our stamps anymore - which is a jolly good thing...

An even better than a "Jolly good" thing I'd say, Bish, since my findings prove that the law of physics that governs the dropping of hot buttered toast also applies to the self adhesive postage stamp.

[TANGODANCER]

Just touching lightly (very lightly) on Mummy's posts from the Muslim cases:

For a couple of years I've travelled home from work with a young Muslim girl. Just got to know each other from causally standing in the same queues nightly. Lovely girl, dazzlingly attractive even though she dresses full Muslim style with her head covered and she's quite willing to talk openly about religion; she's been once on the Mecca Pilgrimage and wants to go again. We've discussed things like Christmas and her festivals and many other topics with mutual interest. She's twenty six and single, rather rare in her world but feels she will have an arranged marriage before too long (although she doesn't seem overly anxious for this to happen). Despite the age difference this is a person I much admire and am comfortable with. We sit together, walk together and even have shared an umbrella together in the rain. At least, sadly that is, until last week when her firm moved offices and she now catches a different train. I really hope I still see her occasionally.

Point is, she's tee-total, doesn't go clubbing or even out much at weekends, except to family weddings etc, and after a days work and travelling to work and home from Bolton to Manchester and back, her family wait for her to get home and cook for five of them. She just laughs wryly at my amazement at this, but is it from choice, religious belief or just from family arrogance and a skewed view on life in the millennium in England? Wouldn't dream of going on about this or calling her family, but I jokingly tell her she wants to put her foot down somewhere (preferably up someone's lazy ass). There are some aspects of Muslim life that I feel have little to do with the Koran and more to do with social class distinction.. Hard to believe in 2006.

[TANGODANCER]

but fortunately you don't have to lick our stamps anymore - which is a jolly good thing...

An even better than a "Jolly good" thing I'd say, Bish, since my findings prove that the law of physics that governs the dropping of hot buttered toast also applies to the self adhesive postage stamp.

With that at least I'm in full agreement. Relates to paint-tin lids too.

[InsaneApache]

Easter was specifically chosen so that it would never coincide with Passover. Look it up. If the dates are wrong and has been shown the Bible has been edited, probably quite heavily even afer the First Council of Nicea, with the numeous mis-translations et al, QED the 'message' may well have been lost as well.

WAIT! That can't be true...after all a man is infallible.....even God made a mistake!...so they say

[thebish]

interesting - and facts not too wide of the mark (though your conclusions are not inevitable)

but.. we were talking about the origins of christmas traditions - which were alleged to have all been "nowt to do with Christianity" and mostly pagan.

see this bone? I'm a stubborn dog - and I've got a tight hold. Of course you could just ignore me and I'll eventually nod off - but coming and waving new balls and toys at me in the hope of distracting me from the original bone (of contention) - that won't work.. I shall just wag my tail and growl....

{has that analogy been pushed just a little bit too far??}

[TANGODANCER]

For those interested enough to pursue the history of Christmas, rather than quote it, I'll post this link. Quite comprehensive and interesting. :

http://www.motherbedford.com/Christmas.htm

[InsaneApache]

perhaps you'd do me the kindness of listing all the "traditions" we celebrate as Christmas traditions that have a Pagan origin - there really aren't that many...

Christmas trees
Wearing party hats
Giving presents
Receiving presents
Eating a feast
Drinking alcohol
Holly and Ivy decoration
Mistletoe
Christmas decorations
Lighting candels

see this bone? I'm a stubborn dog - and I've got a tight hold. Of course you could just ignore me and I'll eventually nod off - but coming and waving new balls and toys at me in the hope of distracting me from the original bone (of contention) - that won't work.. I shall just wag my tail and growl....

Will that keep you going until your Winalot?

[thebish]

perhaps you'd do me the kindness of listing all the "traditions" we celebrate as Christmas traditions that have a Pagan origin - there really aren't that many...

Christmas trees nothing pagan about Christmas trees per se - pagans never decorated christmas trees as we do - they sometimes pinned up evergreens - but then evergreens have been a symbol of eternal life for millenia - for obvious reasons. Christmas trees as we have them - most probably 18th century German tradition - not Pagan
Wearing party hats pagans did not invent wearing party hats - and the only hats we have as a tradition at christmas are the ones in crackers - which were a victorian invention... the hats used to be more elaborate - now they are simply crap and irritating
Giving presents Mmmm... alleged to have come from the Saturnalian (Roman) custom of despised citizens having to bring gifts to the emperor at the festival.. (that's like a kind of an annual tax) if you think this is the same as what we do at Christmas then present-giving in your house must be fun! I think it's possible that the idea of "giving" has more than one root - the Romans didn't invent the idea of giving
Receiving presents (see above)
Eating a feast British Pagan Yule festivities are a quiet and reflective affair - not a celebration of excess.. But I'm not aware that the Church has ever cliamed "feasting" as its own invention!
Drinking alcohol (see above)
Holly and Ivy decoration (see above re. evergreens) - made popular at Christmas by Dickens
Mistletoe (I'm getting bored now - I don't remember Christians ever trying to christianize mistletoe - maybe I've missed something...)
Christmas decorations (see above)
Lighting candels (Mmmm.. dark - no electricity....)

I'm not trying to deny that across the ages Pagan groups haven't done these things - but I think it's pressing the point to insist that they are all "stolen" Pagan practices. Many of them - feasting, drinking alcohol, giving - they would happen in any celebration... not invented by Pagans. (neither are most/any of them particularly emphasised by the Church at Christmas - I mean, have you ever heard the church urging you to wear a hat at Christmas? thought not...) The appropriation of much of this stuff is far more Dickensian than Christian - Christians did not celebrate Christmas that much anyway until recently - it wasn't seen as one of the major christian festivals...

I have been to Pagan ceremonies at Yule-time (I don't know if you have), I have practicing Pagan friends - and I can tell you they are NOTHING like the Christmas that is popularly celebrated - they are quiet and reflective - centred around the burning of the yule log. (to be honest, most people would find it very boring)

The point is valid that Christianity appropriated the major festival times - of course they did - that's just common sense. The dates and the seasons were appropriated - YES - but the feasting and celebrating - most of that just comes naturally...

The church "steals the date" and says - "Go celebrate Christmas!!"
the people say, "Yay - we know how to do that!!"
The Church says - "Marvellous, get on with it then, but we'll see you at midnight mass - and no shagging!"

see this bone? I'm a stubborn dog - and I've got a tight hold. Of course you could just ignore me and I'll eventually nod off - but coming and waving new balls and toys at me in the hope of distracting me from the original bone (of contention) - that won't work.. I shall just wag my tail and growl....

Will that keep you going until your Winalot?

Mmmm... winalot.. now you're making me hungry... Actually I'd rather lick my own bum for a bit and then go and eat that half-decomposed frog that I saw down the garden earlier on, with some grass - then I'll sick it up on the carpet...

[InsaneApache]

Ok I'll concede on the Christmas tree......but it has bugger all to do with Christianity.

Party hats...from Wiki ( I know, I know) The toga was not worn, but the pilleus (freedman's hat) was worn by everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

Presents...from same Wiki site.. The celebrations included a school holiday, the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia) ... and from the site that TD posted

The giving of gifts, as noted previously, was a tradition which the Romans indulged in during their Saturnalian festivals

No mention of a tax to the Emporer...perhaps it's a bit older than the Empire....the Republic?

The feast...

The effort by the Christian Pope to counter these established holidays with a solemn celebration of the Nativity was intended to purge the world of the debauchery and raucousness that they induced in the general populace. The Saturnalia, in particular, was very hedonistic; people indulged in all manner of (often drunken) revelries and gaiety. They indulged in parties and exchanged gifts with one another.

I think I just nudged that one.

Alcohol consumption.....RE: Saturnalia

Holly and Ivy....In Northern Europe Christmas occurred during the middle of winter, when ghosts and demons could be heard howling in the winter winds. Boughs of holly, believed to have magical powers since they remained green through the harsh winter, were often placed over the doors of homes to drive evil away. Greenery was also brought indoors to freshen the air and brighten the mood during the long, dreary winter.

http://www.allthingschristmas.com/traditions.html

No mention of Charles Dickens.

Mistletoe....another bugger all to do with Christmas...

Mistletoe was used by Druid priests 200 years before the birth of Christ in their winter celebrations. They revered the plant since it had no roots yet remained green during the cold months of winter.

The ancient Celtics believed mistletoe to have magical healing powers and used it as an antidote for poison, infertility, and to ward of evil spirits. The plant was also seen as a symbol of peace, and it is said that among Romans, enemies who met under mistletoe would lay down their weapons and embrace.

Scandanavians associated the plant with Frigga, their goddess of love, and it may be from this that we derive the custom of kissing under the mistletoe. Those who kissed under the mistletoe had the promise of happiness and good luck in the following year.

Decorations.....Many millennia ago, ancient man believed that by decorating the bushes in the winter time, they could make them attractive for the spirits, which they believed had fled for shelter from the harsh weather.

We do not know of course what they decorated with, maybe bits of coloured cloth, stones etc. The people of old Mesopotamia (Babylonia in the middle East, Modern Irac) put great store on fringes. Fringed garments were a status symbol, and the fringe would be taken off and put onto a new garment when the old one was discarded. Maybe they occasionally used fringes to decorate their bushes.

Later, people began to take branches into their homes to give warmth and shelter to the spirits of nature, releasing them in the early spring when the first buds began to appear on the trees. From this we get two customs.
1. The bringing of evergreens into the home at Christmastime
2. The superstition that all decorations must be taken down by the end of Christmas, or we shall have bad luck.

Originally, people kept up their decorations for much longer than we do now, the Christmas season ending on Candlemas, the 2nd February, which was more in keeping with the earliest signs of Spring. So we can see how the ancient pre-Christian custom of bringing in branches for the spirits and putting them out again in Spring

http://www.christmasarchives.com/decorations.html

Nope I can't see what this has to do with Jesus.

Candles....Through the centuries, candles have been offered as gifts and used to ward off darkness. The first use of candles at Christmas was during the Roman festival of Saturnalia. Tall tapers of wax were given as gifts to guests and offered to Saturn as a symbol of his light.

Well at least you were right on one thing. The Romans did not have electricity.

[David Lee's Hair]

Isn't every religion based on "pagan" rituals - its not really a coincidence that every religion has festivals around the same time is it?

Although Paganism in its deepest routes means nothing more than "country dweller", and was given to multi god religions by the church as an insult to the people who had little contact with the teachings and hence still believed in many cases in the old Roman gods.

Btw prior to about 5767 years ago there were no montheistic religions, just "pagans"

[thebish]

Mmm.. I'm beginning to lose the will to live...

I don't think you're actually saying much different than what I am - except you're doing it at greater length...

I still think it's a big stretch to suggest that "feasting" is a Pagan invention - and much of your Wikipedian evidence is based around the Roman feast of Saturnalia - which I would not class as "Pagan" - and even if I did, it wouldn't take long to find examples of Winter feasting that predate Saturnalia....

maybe this is where we're going awry - we mean different things by "Pagan"? I don't class Roman "religion" as "Pagan" - you obviously do.. DLH is right when he suggests some murkiness around the definition of the word..

but all of that aside...

I still have the bone in my mouth...

your smokescreen is entertaining - but my post which sparked your wikipedian odyssey was a response to this bold statement:

all the traditions at Christmas have nowt to do with Christianity

The Nativity Play tradition has something to do with Christianity
as does the tradition of Santa Claus (albeit mangled by the Muricans)
as does the tradition of Midnight Mass

(even if only one of those statements is true - then I am right and I claim my five pounds!)

but the Christmas we celebrate today has FAR more to do with Dickens than Pagans or Saturnalian festivals or the Church...

the church has never urged the wearing of hats, or mistletoe or feasting or drinking or christmas trees or mince pies or turkey and all the "trimmings" or BBC film repeats or Only Fools and Horses Specials, or extra Boxing Day football....

the church has urged people to observe the solemn season of Advent - and then to come and celebrate Christ's birth. How people choose to celebrate is a very complex cultural mix of various influences....

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

maybe this is where we're going awry - we mean different things by "Pagan"? I don't class Roman "religion" as "Pagan" - you obviously do..

Surely this has been obvious for quite some time?!

[enfieldwhite]

Just touching lightly (very lightly) on Mummy's posts from the Muslim cases:

For a couple of years I've travelled home from work with a young Muslim girl. Just got to know each other from causally standing in the same queues nightly. Lovely girl, dazzlingly attractive even though she dresses full Muslim style with her head covered and she's quite willing to talk openly about religion; she's been once on the Mecca Pilgrimage and wants to go again. We've discussed things like Christmas and her festivals and many other topics with mutual interest. She's twenty six and single, rather rare in her world but feels she will have an arranged marriage before too long (although she doesn't seem overly anxious for this to happen). Despite the age difference this is a person I much admire and am comfortable with. We sit together, walk together and even have shared an umbrella together in the rain. At least, sadly that is, until last week when her firm moved offices and she now catches a different train. I really hope I still see her occasionally.

Point is, she's tee-total, doesn't go clubbing or even out much at weekends, except to family weddings etc, and after a days work and travelling to work and home from Bolton to Manchester and back, her family wait for her to get home and cook for five of them. She just laughs wryly at my amazement at this, but is it from choice, religious belief or just from family arrogance and a skewed view on life in the millennium in England? Wouldn't dream of going on about this or calling her family, but I jokingly tell her she wants to put her foot down somewhere (preferably up someone's lazy ass). There are some aspects of Muslim life that I feel have little to do with the Koran and more to do with social class distinction.. Hard to believe in 2006.

From my time in London (17 years) I have encountered many different people with many different faiths. All have been accepting of my questions about their beliefs and all have been happy to share their thoughts on the similarities and differences in our religions.

I am a Roman-Catholic, my wife is CofE, as is my daughter. We have friends who are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu and Sikh and I embrace them all.

I feel compelled to append this to TD's post, and I know it's away from the main thrust of the thread, but my friends will share the festivities at my house at Christmas, as I will theirs at Ramadan, Yom Kippur, Diwali, Rosh Hashanna, etc. etc.

[David Lee's Hair]

Just touching lightly (very lightly) on Mummy's posts from the Muslim cases:

For a couple of years I've travelled home from work with a young Muslim girl. Just got to know each other from causally standing in the same queues nightly. Lovely girl, dazzlingly attractive even though she dresses full Muslim style with her head covered and she's quite willing to talk openly about religion; she's been once on the Mecca Pilgrimage and wants to go again. We've discussed things like Christmas and her festivals and many other topics with mutual interest. She's twenty six and single, rather rare in her world but feels she will have an arranged marriage before too long (although she doesn't seem overly anxious for this to happen). Despite the age difference this is a person I much admire and am comfortable with. We sit together, walk together and even have shared an umbrella together in the rain. At least, sadly that is, until last week when her firm moved offices and she now catches a different train. I really hope I still see her occasionally.

Point is, she's tee-total, doesn't go clubbing or even out much at weekends, except to family weddings etc, and after a days work and travelling to work and home from Bolton to Manchester and back, her family wait for her to get home and cook for five of them. She just laughs wryly at my amazement at this, but is it from choice, religious belief or just from family arrogance and a skewed view on life in the millennium in England? Wouldn't dream of going on about this or calling her family, but I jokingly tell her she wants to put her foot down somewhere (preferably up someone's lazy ass). There are some aspects of Muslim life that I feel have little to do with the Koran and more to do with social class distinction.. Hard to believe in 2006.

From my time in London (17 years) I have encountered many different people with many different faiths. All have been accepting of my questions about their beliefs and all have been happy to share their thoughts on the similarities and differences in our religions.

I am a Roman-Catholic, my wife is CofE, as is my daughter. We have friends who are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu and Sikh and I embrace them all.

I feel compelled to append this to TD's post, and I know it's away from the main thrust of the thread, but my friends will share the festivities at my house at Christmas, as I will theirs at Ramadan, Yom Kippur, Diwali, Rosh Hashanna, etc. etc.

I'm with you two here completely. I have great friends of all religions and beliefs, and in all cases they are genuinely nice people who are happy to explain there beliefs, and my arguements for not believing. Hence the rotten apples arguement before.

One disagreement EW though, I wouldn't want to share Yom Kippur. 26 hours of fasting, not being able to clean your teeth, uses electricity, and 12 hours in Synagogue repenting for my sins aint my idea of fun!