Benitez .... prick

[Bruce Rioja]

Blurred ... sorry, but, apart from for tomorrow's game when it's directly relevant to Bolton Wanderers ... I DON'T CARE !!!

Fair enough, a similar sentiment can be applied to the relegation battle and me, except when we're playing sides down the bottom of the table.

Me too.

[CrazyHorse]

Fernando Torres has warned Liverpool's owners that the club's top players are ready to quit if manager Rafael Benitez is sacked. (various)

How does a football player just quit his multi-million pound contract?

[blurred]

How does a football player just quit his multi-million pound contract?

Buys himself out of it (or rather finds a club to do it). Same way that you'd get out of a work contract, give the required notice, etc. They probably have several options available to them as regards termination of a deal, besides, a club wouldn't want to keep a player who obviously didn't want to be there, because there'd be no guarantee that they'd perform to anything near their ability.

[Red]

Torres was mistranslated.

[blurred]

Quick question for those in white - was there anywhere in the press last week that criticised Fergie and his rotation for the defeat at Bolton? Resting Ronaldo, was that criticised at all? Or was it just 'United had the players on the pitch to beat Bolton' and all that shite?

[Worthy4England]

Quick question for those in white - was there anywhere in the press last week that criticised Fergie and his rotation for the defeat at Bolton? Resting Ronaldo, was that criticised at all? Or was it just 'United had the players on the pitch to beat Bolton' and all that shite?

Didn't come across anything in the press. There was plenty of pissed off RedShite fans saying it though. Looking at what he had available (i.e. not injured) he only rested one player whereas Benetiz can somtimes rest three or four at a time iirc.

Without trying to denegrate this into an "Us and Them" between what Utd or Liverpool have won recently, Red Noses rotation policy doesn't seem to have largely affected Utd's chances to win the League, because they've managed it fairly often over the last 20 years or so. I think because of that, Fergie rotating players in or out is "less of an issue" to the press than when Benitez does it, given most Liverpool fans desire to add another League title to the pile and keep one in front of the red shite. It also doesn't help you guys when people like Jimmy Case come on radio after every defeat in the League pointing out the when they won it only 16 different players were used in a 125 match season etc.

[blurred]

Didn't come across anything in the press. There was plenty of pissed off RedShite fans saying it though. Looking at what he had available (i.e. not injured) he only rested one player whereas Benetiz can somtimes rest three or four at a time iirc.

Without trying to denegrate this into an "Us and Them" between what Utd or Liverpool have won recently, Red Noses rotation policy doesn't seem to have largely affected Utd's chances to win the League, because they've managed it fairly often over the last 20 years or so. I think because of that, Fergie rotating players in or out is "less of an issue" to the press than when Benitez does it, given most Liverpool fans desire to add another League title to the pile and keep one in front of the red shite. It also doesn't help you guys when people like Jimmy Case come on radio after every defeat in the League pointing out the when they won it only 16 different players were used in a 125 match season etc.

The thing is both Fergie and Mourinho (going on last season) made as many changes to their starting line-ups over the course of the season as Benitez did (almost exactly the same number, in fact), so the criticism of rotation is patently false. It works for other title winning sides, so the system itself is not the problem. Perhaps the meeja could actually do some investigating and report on why Liverpool are not as successful with it as the other teams (changing fewer/more players? changing them at different times of the season? different positions? home/away? through choice or through injury?)? Although actually expecting them to do some work for a living rather than trotting out clichés is perhaps expecting a bit much.

Anyone remember when Rafa first came to Liverpool how everyone used to bang on the drum of 'zonal marking'? Every goal Liverpool conceded seemed to be blamed on zonal marking, and it was the devil. Even ones that didn't come directly from set pieces (which is where he employs the system) were being blamed on it. It was barmy. Funnily enough, after a couple of months of bedding it in and getting the players used to it, people started to notice that actually Liverpool tended not to concede many goals from set-pieces at all, and that the system actually worked. How often would you read in the press of a player getting lost at a corner/free kick and nodding a goal in unopposed as 'the fault of man-marking'? Never.

One of these days the press will get bored of 'rotation', notice that every side does it for one reason or another, for one competition or another. By then, of course, they'll've found the next topic to endlessly bore us with and to beat Benitez with.

[hisroyalgingerness]

aye but on the whole i think utd players and chelsea players know where they stand. you can pretty much rhyme off their first team. with your lot i struggle. couldn't tell you your first choice strikers. can't decide if riise is left back or left wing, and if so is he ahead or behind babel and arbola dude? are you 4-4-2 or 4-3-3? it's just not as clear as other clubs first XIs

that and didn't rafa do somert ridiculous like 40 games in a row with a changed line up

[Worthy4England]

Aye don't really disagree with what you are saying there Blurred. We got tarred with long-ball when the stats show there were plenty of teams played more long passes than Bolton last year - strange but true.

The best way for Benetez to silence this one would be to win the Prem, which both Fergie and Mourinho have done recently. I don't think it's just related to Liverpool, when the Tinkerman was at Chelsea, they got slated for it too. Like I say, I think plenty of the "issue" is connected in large part to the significant amount of time that Liverpool have remained in the top 4 but not landed a Prem title. The longer this continues combined with Benetez not landing a Prem, the longer the meejah will make an issue out of it.

In terms of spending money, he's probably had comparable amounts as Wenger (if not more than Wenger) and Red Nose, but less than Mourinho had, yet both Arsenal and United have managed Prem titles this century and in the last 4 years.

The other thing to bear in mind is how far Liverpool have finished behind the Champions in points terms. 21 points last year, 9 the year before, 37 the year before that, 30 the year before that.

I have no axe to grind with Liverpool, they gave me many great memories watching them in Europe as a kid with some great teams. The issue is until this season, you've realistically been a long way behind the team that's won the Prem for a while, and while it continues (given that Benetez can't really claim he's had nowt to spend) and he continues to rotate away from what is perceived to be his best "First XI" he's always going to come under probably more pressure than the others, when Prem points are dropped.

[blurred]

The best way for Benetez to silence this one would be to win the Prem, which both Fergie and Mourinho have done recently. I don't think it's just related to Liverpool, when the Tinkerman was at Chelsea, they got slated for it too. Like I say, I think plenty of the "issue" is connected in large part to the significant amount of time that Liverpool have remained in the top 4 but not landed a Prem title. The longer this continues combined with Benetez not landing a Prem, the longer the meejah will make an issue out of it.

In terms of spending money, he's probably had comparable amounts as Wenger (if not more than Wenger) and Red Nose, but less than Mourinho had, yet both Arsenal and United have managed Prem titles this century and in the last 4 years.

Comparable amounts of money to Red Nose? Surely you jest, sir? Over the last decade or more United have comfortably outspent every side in sight, until the recent exception of Chelsea's current owner. Massive fees have been spent on the likes of Rooney, Ferdinand, Veron, Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, Nani, Anderson, Carrick... the list goes on. How many times has he broken the British transfer record?

The other thing that both Ferguson and Wenger have had is time/patience. Fergie had a terrible start to his time and United, and after Wenger's initial success at Arsenal he was given time until he ended up landing a title in 03/04 having rebuilt the squad. Benitez is doing the same rebuilding now and I think that it's obvious that it's getting nearer to the finished article. I do agree with the basic premise that he could do with that success to get some of this monkey off his back, however.

The other thing to bear in mind is how far Liverpool have finished behind the Champions in points terms. 21 points last year, 9 the year before, 37 the year before that, 30 the year before that.

Indeed, disappointing performances a couple of those - the two worst offenders were when we were going for Champions League glory, however - in his first season it was a knackered squad lacking any real strength in depth that couldn't cope with fighting on a number of fronts, and in the more recent season it was a side that were being rested in league games in order to preserve themselves for champions league ties, given that they were in no danger of coming first but at the same time not in any danger of coming lower than 4th. Defeats away at Pompey and Fulham with the likes of Insua and El Zhar in the side were fairly obviously going to happen.

[Worthy4England]

Comparable amounts of money to Red Nose? Surely you jest, sir?

What I meant was, in terms of spending money Benetez has had as much as Fergie since he joined Liverpool.

Red Nose has spent big and I don't disagree that they've had the lions share over the years - around 334m in his time in charge as far as I can get to. Works out around 334m in 21 years. Since Benetez joined Liverpool, Red Nose has spent 132m give or take to Benetez' 125m.

[blurred]

Comparable amounts of money to Red Nose? Surely you jest, sir?

What I meant was, in terms of spending money Benetez has had as much as Fergie since he joined Liverpool.

Red Nose has spent big and I don't disagree that they've had the lions share over the years - around 334m in his time in charge as far as I can get to. Works out around 334m in 21 years. Since Benetez joined Liverpool, Red Nose has spent 132m give or take to Benetez' 125m.

Fair enough, they've had a similar amount of money in recent years, but against a backdrop of a side who've been able to spend bigger than us for the preceding 10 years it shows that Rafa's got some making up to do. Fergie's squad contains a hatful of players that (until this summer) would have been our record signing. It still contains a few.

We're now getting to the point of an entirely Rafa collected squad, though, and it shows in the performances. Look at United and Arsenal and how they have built up a squad over the last decade - that's what Liverpool are in the middle of doing now, and our first team squad is actually of a decent age, too. This group of players should be around for a few years, meaning that bits and pieces can be added to it, rather than wholesale changes. Fingers crossed we'll start to bridge the gap.

[Batman]

What's gone on with that Sissoko?

When he first went there my Pool supporting friend was ready to spunk all over him for eternity, and now they want rid............how and why? HOW AND WHY?

[Worthy4England]

Comparable amounts of money to Red Nose? Surely you jest, sir?

What I meant was, in terms of spending money Benetez has had as much as Fergie since he joined Liverpool.

Red Nose has spent big and I don't disagree that they've had the lions share over the years - around 334m in his time in charge as far as I can get to. Works out around 334m in 21 years. Since Benetez joined Liverpool, Red Nose has spent 132m give or take to Benetez' 125m.

Fair enough, they've had a similar amount of money in recent years, but against a backdrop of a side who've been able to spend bigger than us for the preceding 10 years it shows that Rafa's got some making up to do. Fergie's squad contains a hatful of players that (until this summer) would have been our record signing. It still contains a few.

We're now getting to the point of an entirely Rafa collected squad, though, and it shows in the performances. Look at United and Arsenal and how they have built up a squad over the last decade - that's what Liverpool are in the middle of doing now, and our first team squad is actually of a decent age, too. This group of players should be around for a few years, meaning that bits and pieces can be added to it, rather than wholesale changes. Fingers crossed we'll start to bridge the gap.

Yeah - United do have quite few players that they will need to replace soonish that came out of their junior ranks, so they didn't cost anything because they were already there. Scholes, Giggs and Neville to name but 3. But then again so do Liverpool.

This same amount of money only applying in recent years thing is a complete myth though.

Since the Prem began - Red Nose had Spent 334m, but he's recouped 142m - net spend = 192m

Liverpool managers over the same period have spent 299m and recouped 123m - net spend = 176m

Doesn't represent a huge difference over 16 seasons to me.

Arsenal have spent 228m and recouped 156m - net spend = 72m over the same period, but they've won the Prem 3 times.

I think Liverpool have enough money (and have spent enough money) to give themselves a reasonable punt at the title, but without trying to be offensive, it's the managers that haven't been up to it. Bolton who have spent the square root of sod all have ended up way nearer on points to Liverpool than Liverpool have been to the eventual champions on three of the last four years. Again, not having a pop - just saying that would seem to suggest that Liverpool have made some pretty poor deals and not been comparitively as well managed in proportion to the investment that has allowed the managers to spend. (I don't suspect this season we'll end up nearer on points difference to Liverpool than they will end up to the eventual winners)

[blurred]

Which site do you get your figures from, incidentally?

[blurred]

What's gone on with that Sissoko?

When he first went there my Pool supporting friend was ready to spunk all over him for eternity, and now they want rid............how and why? HOW AND WHY?

In his first season, for the most part, he was playing very well. He was something that we had needed for some time, and put in some great performances. We overlooked his limitations because of what positives he brought to the team. The backend of last season, though, his level started to drop and people naturally focussed more on the negatives, mainly his complete inability to pass the football more than about 12 feet.

There were constant rumblings in the summer that Juve were after him, and had they come in with a serious bid (of the amounts being bandied around) I'd've snapped their hand off. As it is his performances are starting to get better, and he is developing as a player. Still, he's really only needed away from home against sides that are likely to cause us problems, or where we need that energy in midfield. Playing him at home against sides like Wigan or Derby is a complete no-no for me. He has his place.

[Athers]

Apparently tactically all over the place today, even took Gerrard off again, really going for the title that is.

[CrazyHorse]

Apparently tactically all over the place today, even took Gerrard off again, really going for the title that is.

The man's a prick.

[Batman]

Most amused to see Reading's penalty given considering how many dodgy ones Pool get.

Also nice to see Torres picking up Gerrard's trick of diving

Also nice to see Gerrard lying that he got the ball (to the ref) when replays show it was a cynical foul.

[CrazyHorse]

Gerrard's a prick too.