The Politics Thread

[bristol_Wanderer3]

It isn't a silly statement at all. I meant the fact that you have or haven't religious beleifs shouldn't have a bearing on the everyday life of politicians or political matters, the topic of conversation in this thread. I thought you would understand that.

Oh, I understand perfectly. And it's still very silly.

Politicians have to make all sorts of moral judgements every day. Probably more in their job than I do in mine. Are you saying that their religious beliefs shouldn't enter into these? That Catholic MPs should vote in favour of abortion, for example?

Okay. Let's try and put it into context, and bear in mind we are never going to agree about religion. That I accept. That is the main point of disagreement and why we will have conflicting opinions on almost everything that religion can be brought into. It's a fact of life. In itself, that proves one thing conclusively, human nature and every man jack on the planet will disagree about something or other and a lot of it, though certainly not all, will be based on respective belief or disbelief. It won't change anything except opinion. The majority of the East will belive in Islam and Judaism or other religions, the majority of the West in Christianity. Factions of both will be Atheists. It will certainly never be as one in Obama's reign.

A question that's relevant; Before religion was mentioned on here as a topic, were we treating each other differently and just expressing our opinions on anything and everything without a mention of religion or God? Did religion affect our basic lives on here? Did we carry on just being normal people?

Next: So, where did morals and moral judgement originate and who defined them? What are they for?

Before the Bible and the Ten Commandments, what morals were in force and observed? Was Moses the most righteous man on earth and did he suddenly think it all up? Now bear in mind we are talking of a time in excess of two thousand years ago, a time when life bore no resemblance to what we know today. A time indeed when man worshipped many gods and life, and the taking of it, was vastly more barbaric than now. War hasn't changed, it never will, but war is never about God, only power, greed and possession. Obama will, first and foremost, look after his country. He has no choice in that as President. He will try, I'm sure, to do that in a fair and humane way but, if faced with nuclear threat from another country, will he say: "I can't push the button even though we are all going to be wiped out because God said, Thou shalt not kill!"

You claim that religion will affect his moral judgement, but would it in that instance except perhaps inside himself? I claim that religion would have no bearing on his actions as probably the most powerful man on earth. This is one example when the word of God may well be ignored against the word of man. Why, because Obama is a man, dealing with men, not God. Oh, he may pray he is doing the right thing, but if he followed God to the letter would certainly be out of office rapido. As for things like divorce, abortion and contraception, the majority will rule whatever. The Catholics will ignore any law that makes it legal because of what they believe. Atheists will do as they think fit because they don't. God will have little bearing on the overall result as a political ruling unless we're going to build arenas again and throw believers to the lions. Religion will have no bearing on the actions as politics, only as personal beliefs. A politician is pressurised into an action by the weight of public opinion, not by his religious beliefs. If he puts them first his political life will be a very short one. The proof is in yourself; would you obey an anti-abortion law because a politician claimed it wrong on Religious grounds? Morals are allmost all based on the Ten Commandments in some way. If they weren't we'd still be living in the dark ages. The world has been kept in check for a very long time in the belief that a greater power than us all exists. When that ceases totally, the world will end itself.

That's my explanation. Call it silly (which means not jot to me) or whatever you will. I don't try to impose it on you, or anyone else. It's just my view.

Is this really true?

If it is then surely the western world is only a generation or two away from oblivion?

Surely people are dismissing religion as a basis for living their lives because they believe it to be absurd and irrelevant - just a story that has been portrayed as more than it really is. But such things as the law, and other agreements that people make by which they live their lives (ie. country constitutions etc.), are the ways we keep ourselves in check? To me that doesn't have to be linked to a greater power, but rather the common sense of mankind, which I admit sometimes requires one to have a certain type of blind faith.....

[William the White]

Well done Sir. Another nail in the coffin of this 'whiter than white' government. Election now!

Who, let us not forget, played the 'sleaze' card for all it was worth when electioneering in the run up to the 97 elections.

errrmmm... shadow chancellors on yachts?

two disgraced ministers serving jail time...

freebies in the Paris Ritz...

down with all sleaze, i say...

How could you miss gerrymandering off the list?

For reasons of space and low boredom factor for all other than list addicts I omitted a number of malpractices committed by the ruling classes since cain had his way with abel then claimed it wasn't him, guv...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/camb ... 848583.stm

http://cambridgegazasolidarity.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46122018819

My education is currently being disrupted by attention-addicted 60s throwbacks.

I'd send in the tanks, myself.

Though I'd be more than willing to chip in to pay for the air fare for a few to show their 'solidarity' in a public building in Gaza, not just the safety of lecture room LG17.

[Lord Kangana]

Perhaps we can club together and get you to criticise them whilst staring down the barrel of a 120mm smooth bore gun?

[Prufrock]

I'm with Mummy on this one. I fecking hate pathetic student demos like this. Who do they think they are going to affect. A bunch of students paying for their education and then deliberately sabotaging it to the detriment of no-one other than themselves and their fellow students. Well that should sort it all out. Now I'm not saying I don't agree with their cause, or what they are saying, but if they actually care, and it's not just a big toffy rah rah 'we care' like the folk who go out to Africa on a gap year purely for their CV, then they should get down to Westminster, or the local MP's office and make sure they make the people who matter listen.

[Lord Kangana]

Small Acorns my friend, if everyone just shrugged their shoulders like you are doing the powers that be would take the p*ss even more than they already do. A bit of anarchy is no bad thing now and then.

[Prufrock]

Small Acorns my friend, if everyone just shrugged their shoulders like you are doing the powers that be would take the p*ss even more than they already do. A bit of anarchy is no bad thing now and then.

That's my point, i ain't for shrugging my shoulders, if they care then they should get there arses down to Westminster, create a scene, get some proper attention and disrupt the days of those who can do something. Now the cynic in me says that even that wouldn't work, but a government is more likely to take note of people on its front lawn kicking up a fuss outside Westminster about things they don't think are right than they are some students sat in a classroom doing no work.

[Lord Kangana]

So what are you doing about it?

[Prufrock]

So what are you doing about it?

Not my fight. I don't pretend to know enough about what they are protesting against, all I am saying is if they care that much sitting on ther arses in a classroom patting themselves on the back is not going to do feck all apart from massage their egos. I'm not saying that every single thing that winds you up, or that yuo disagree with should be countered by a placard and a trip to Westminster, but these students seem to be claiming to care. As you yourself said 'a little anarchy is no bad thing', well sitting doing nothing in a classroom is hardly going to make people in power sit up and notice. Too many half hearted 'do-gooders' wearing Che Guevara t-shirts without actually doing anything. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming to be some insurrectionary hero of the poeple, just that if i was in Mummy's situation I'd be pretty p*ssed off at having my three grand a year education disrupted by some 'student activist' playing the big man of the people role when if they really gave a sh*t they could be doing so much more.

My old sig has never been more appropriate,

"It was bad enough the feeling the first time it hit,
When you realised your parents had let the world all go to sh*t,
And that the values and ideals for which many had fought and died,
had been killed off in the committees and left to die by the wayside,

But it was worse when we turned to the kids on the left,
and got let down again by some poor excuse for protest,
yeah by idiot f*cking hippies in fifty different factions,
who are locked inside some kind of sixties battle re-enactment

So i hang up my banner in disgust,
and i head for the door"

[Prufrock]

Speaking of 'student activism', hopefully next week the UCL Union AGM will overturn a frankly astonishing decision last year to ban the military from advertising their Officer Training Corps scheme at our fresher's fayre. A decision forced through without a quorum. When objections were raised to this, all objectors were sent out of the room and they passed the motion anyway.

[William the White]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/camb ... 848583.stm

http://cambridgegazasolidarity.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46122018819

My education is currently being disrupted by attention-addicted 60s throwbacks.

I'd send in the tanks, myself.

Though I'd be more than willing to chip in to pay for the air fare for a few to show their 'solidarity' in a public building in Gaza, not just the safety of lecture room LG17.

I realise, of course, that it's very hard for you to contemplate that there might be anything more important in the whole world than your degree...

and a bit of me understands that...

but none of me really understands the contemptuous dismissal, by you and prufrock, of people who have seen the vileness of Gaza and, however incoherently, are trying to find a way of shouting against it...

But, since you seem to believe that the world revolves exclusively around you, i'm certainly not unhappy it's been disrupted, if only as a small corrective.

and i hope you get a first. And Prufrock.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

but none of me really understands the contemptuous dismissal, by you and prufrock, of people who have seen the vileness of Gaza and, however incoherently, are trying to find a way of shouting against it...

What does a bunch of hippies bedding in and doing yoga at my Faculty achieve?

The situation in Gaza is not a matter for the authorities of the University of Cambridge.

This is their list of 'demands':

1. We demand that Cambridge University issue a statement which condemns: Israel’s action in Gaza; the Israeli blockade of Gaza; and the continued Israeli presence in Gaza and the West Bank. This statement is to be issued in solidarity with international peace movements, in particular those in Israel and Palestine.

2. We demand that Cambridge University provide academic aid, particularly books, computers and financial support to universities in Gaza.

3. We demand that Cambridge University commit to a day of fundraising for humanitarian aid in Gaza within the next two weeks, as part of an ongoing commitment to financial support for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

4. We demand that Cambridge University grant a minimum of ten scholarships to Palestinian students every year.

5. We demand that Cambridge University and its colleges disinvest from the arms trade in cooperation with the existing Cambridge (and colleges) Against the Arms Trade movement.

6. We demand that no student will face punishment or repercussions, legal or otherwise, for participating in this demonstration.


Number 6 is my personal favourite.... hippies aren't what they used to be!

[William the White]

but none of me really understands the contemptuous dismissal, by you and prufrock, of people who have seen the vileness of Gaza and, however incoherently, are trying to find a way of shouting against it...

What does a bunch of hippies bedding in and doing yoga at my Faculty achieve?

The situation in Gaza is not a matter for the authorities of the University of Cambridge.

This is their list of 'demands':

1. We demand that Cambridge University issue a statement which condemns: Israel’s action in Gaza; the Israeli blockade of Gaza; and the continued Israeli presence in Gaza and the West Bank. This statement is to be issued in solidarity with international peace movements, in particular those in Israel and Palestine.

2. We demand that Cambridge University provide academic aid, particularly books, computers and financial support to universities in Gaza.

3. We demand that Cambridge University commit to a day of fundraising for humanitarian aid in Gaza within the next two weeks, as part of an ongoing commitment to financial support for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

4. We demand that Cambridge University grant a minimum of ten scholarships to Palestinian students every year.

5. We demand that Cambridge University and its colleges disinvest from the arms trade in cooperation with the existing Cambridge (and colleges) Against the Arms Trade movement.

6. We demand that no student will face punishment or repercussions, legal or otherwise, for participating in this demonstration.


Number 6 is my personal favourite.... hippies aren't what they used to be!

Since i don't want to spoil a hardworking student's chances of a first, rather than reply i offer the advice that you get back to work immediately, and avoid those golf courses. not wanting you to have your education disrupted like. since that's already happened once today and caused you to sulk in public to bolton wanderers supporters. icebag on head, crayon in ink, now!

[Prufrock]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/camb ... 848583.stm

http://cambridgegazasolidarity.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46122018819

My education is currently being disrupted by attention-addicted 60s throwbacks.

I'd send in the tanks, myself.

Though I'd be more than willing to chip in to pay for the air fare for a few to show their 'solidarity' in a public building in Gaza, not just the safety of lecture room LG17.

I realise, of course, that it's very hard for you to contemplate that there might be anything more important in the whole world than your degree...

and a bit of me understands that...

but none of me really understands the contemptuous dismissal, by you and prufrock, of people who have seen the vileness of Gaza and, however incoherently, are trying to find a way of shouting against it...

But, since you seem to believe that the world revolves exclusively around you, i'm certainly not unhappy it's been disrupted, if only as a small corrective.

and i hope you get a first. And Prufrock.

I could go for your option and not actually read what you've written, and from there form an argument. Instead I shall ask you a question. Do you think the people in Gaza are taking comfort from this students 'demonstrations'? If not is that because they have't and won't make a blind bit of difference. Do you think Gordon Brown, someone with the power to do something is taking a blind bit of notice of what they are saying. If not, is that because sitting in a classroom doing nothing is a pathetic excuse for a 'protest'. My feelings on Gaza are quite seperate from my feelings about those who pat themselves on the back for doing a good job and really making a difference when the fact of the matter is they have done nothing at all. And if they are to do nothing at all, they might as well not affect folk's education. If this sit in protest was to end the problems of the middle east, then yes i'd agree a few days of Mummy's education would be a price worth paying, fact is they arent going to make a blind bit of difference, and if they really care they should do something proper.

[Verbal]

No doubt it'll look good on the old CV though (bloody hell, how cynical did that sound?)

I think I'm kind of twixt and tween here. Firstly I like the spirit. Causing a stir over a common cause is quite justifiable, something I became accustomed to in first year of uni actually. However, that was to do with a university issue, not a inter-state (if you want to call Gaza a state...) conflict. Clearly, we had a better chance of being heard than the 100 or so students in Cambridge.

If they wanted something which may put even a teeny amount of pressure on the government, they should maybe have gone through a collective student body, maybe NUS or RAG or something like that. At least a cooridinated effort across many universities resembles a common stand against what is happening, whereas a hundred students sitting in a Law library makes the 'and finally...' section on the local news.

[William the White]

hi there, Prufrock...

so, tempt me into argument again...

yes, the people of gaza will definitely be taking heart by knowing that throughout the world there are people on their side... i've no idea whether this particular demonstration in cambridge has been publicised in a major way, but i'm pretty certain it will appear in a list emailed across the the world to people who care about gaza and other middle eastern issues - i know because i'm a subscriber to one, which is initiated by israeli dissidents opposed to their government's actions...

only the incredibly naive imagines that any particular demonstration leads directly to results. this one, like others, has, i imagine two purposes, both very important. one is to allow the participants to say 'not in my name', and i think that it's important when you disagree to make that public, if you wish. in some countries it would lead to arrest, torture and even death - so do you really pour scorn on people who exercise this democratic right? what then is the point of democracy?

the other purpose is, little by little, to build a movement of opposition that might, at some time in the future, have an effect. usually this isn't effective, but, until you try, you don't know. sometimes it becomes very powerful. let us, for instance, acknowledge, in this month, a trail of action and dissidence that started with sitting at the front of the bus in alabama in 1953, and has led to the election of a black president. the anti vietnam war movement was successful in the end. the green movement is on its way. so, don't tell people they have to go to the house of commons. they are in cambridge. we are in bolton. the movement for change needs building everywhere.

is this hard to understand?

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

hi there, Prufrock...

so, tempt me into argument again...

yes, the people of gaza will definitely be taking heart by knowing that throughout the world there are people on their side... i've no idea whether this particular demonstration in cambridge has been publicised in a major way, but i'm pretty certain it will appear in a list emailed across the the world to people who care about gaza and other middle eastern issues - i know because i'm a subscriber to one, which is initiated by israeli dissidents opposed to their government's actions...

only the incredibly naive imagines that any particular demonstration leads directly to results. this one, like others, has, i imagine two purposes, both very important. one is to allow the participants to say 'not in my name', and i think that it's important when you disagree to make that public, if you wish. in some countries it would lead to arrest, torture and even death - so do you really pour scorn on people who exercise this democratic right? what then is the point of democracy?

the other purpose is, little by little, to build a movement of opposition that might, at some time in the future, have an effect. usually this isn't effective, but, until you try, you don't know. sometimes it becomes very powerful. let us, for instance, acknowledge, in this month, a trail of action and dissidence that started with sitting at the front of the bus in alabama in 1953, and has led to the election of a black president. the anti vietnam war movement was successful in the end. the green movement is on its way. so, don't tell people they have to go to the house of commons. they are in cambridge. we are in bolton. the movement for change needs building everywhere.

is this hard to understand?

Very naive of you Billy boy if you are expecting a positive response to this question. What makes you think that the youth of today conditioned by New Right politics and the utter vaccuousness and mendacity of Thatcherism and Blairism would choose to understand anything beyond their narrow self- interest?

[William the White]

hi there, Prufrock...

so, tempt me into argument again...

yes, the people of gaza will definitely be taking heart by knowing that throughout the world there are people on their side... i've no idea whether this particular demonstration in cambridge has been publicised in a major way, but i'm pretty certain it will appear in a list emailed across the the world to people who care about gaza and other middle eastern issues - i know because i'm a subscriber to one, which is initiated by israeli dissidents opposed to their government's actions...

only the incredibly naive imagines that any particular demonstration leads directly to results. this one, like others, has, i imagine two purposes, both very important. one is to allow the participants to say 'not in my name', and i think that it's important when you disagree to make that public, if you wish. in some countries it would lead to arrest, torture and even death - so do you really pour scorn on people who exercise this democratic right? what then is the point of democracy?

the other purpose is, little by little, to build a movement of opposition that might, at some time in the future, have an effect. usually this isn't effective, but, until you try, you don't know. sometimes it becomes very powerful. let us, for instance, acknowledge, in this month, a trail of action and dissidence that started with sitting at the front of the bus in alabama in 1953, and has led to the election of a black president. the anti vietnam war movement was successful in the end. the green movement is on its way. so, don't tell people they have to go to the house of commons. they are in cambridge. we are in bolton. the movement for change needs building everywhere.

is this hard to understand?

Very naive of you Billy boy if you are expecting a positive response to this question. What makes you think that the youth of today conditioned by New Right politics and the utter vaccuousness and mendacity of Thatcherism and Blairism would choose to understand anything beyond their narrow self- interest?

Just, in my naivete, trying to defend a few in Cambridge who did... i'd rather save my cynicism for almost obscene junket that is english football...

[Prufrock]

hi there, Prufrock...

so, tempt me into argument again...

yes, the people of gaza will definitely be taking heart by knowing that throughout the world there are people on their side... i've no idea whether this particular demonstration in cambridge has been publicised in a major way, but i'm pretty certain it will appear in a list emailed across the the world to people who care about gaza and other middle eastern issues - i know because i'm a subscriber to one, which is initiated by israeli dissidents opposed to their government's actions...

only the incredibly naive imagines that any particular demonstration leads directly to results. this one, like others, has, i imagine two purposes, both very important. one is to allow the participants to say 'not in my name', and i think that it's important when you disagree to make that public, if you wish. in some countries it would lead to arrest, torture and even death - so do you really pour scorn on people who exercise this democratic right? what then is the point of democracy?

the other purpose is, little by little, to build a movement of opposition that might, at some time in the future, have an effect. usually this isn't effective, but, until you try, you don't know. sometimes it becomes very powerful. let us, for instance, acknowledge, in this month, a trail of action and dissidence that started with sitting at the front of the bus in alabama in 1953, and has led to the election of a black president. the anti vietnam war movement was successful in the end. the green movement is on its way. so, don't tell people they have to go to the house of commons. they are in cambridge. we are in bolton. the movement for change needs building everywhere.

is this hard to understand?

I understand every word, and what's more i agree with every word. However, call me cynical if you wish, and in this case you would quite possibly be correct, but i have experience of 'student activism', i have been peppered with half thought out leaflets about 'good causes' every day for two and a half years. So many of these students are in it for the CV, for the social scene. I agree about having the right to say 'i disapprove', and i agree about building movements. However, as you say one individual demo isn't going to suddenly change the world, but if we are talking about building a movement, surely the people involved, the people who claim to really care, should do everything they possibly can to further that cause. Is sitting in a classroom really the most they could have done? Was it really the most constructive way of going about it? There are a plethora of more hard hitting, more attention grabbing, more resposible courses of action, and whilst i may be being unfair to individuals, my experience of student 'committees', and 'demos' is they took the easy option that would still look good on their CV and still convince themselves they were doing good.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Since i don't want to spoil a hardworking student's chances of a first, rather than reply i offer the advice that you get back to work immediately, and avoid those golf courses. not wanting you to have your education disrupted like. since that's already happened once today and caused you to sulk in public to bolton wanderers supporters. icebag on head, crayon in ink, now!

Why do you always mention the fact I play golf? Do you have anything in particular against the sport? The funny thing is, I have actually retired from the Uni team precisely because I don't have time for it in this, my final year, because my degree is more important.

And as for sulking... wouldn't really call it that myself. Just throwing something that's going on in my life today into the the ring for discussion, as we all do, from time to time.

hi there, Prufrock...

so, tempt me into argument again...

yes, the people of gaza will definitely be taking heart by knowing that throughout the world there are people on their side... i've no idea whether this particular demonstration in cambridge has been publicised in a major way, but i'm pretty certain it will appear in a list emailed across the the world to people who care about gaza and other middle eastern issues - i know because i'm a subscriber to one, which is initiated by israeli dissidents opposed to their government's actions...

only the incredibly naive imagines that any particular demonstration leads directly to results. this one, like others, has, i imagine two purposes, both very important. one is to allow the participants to say 'not in my name', and i think that it's important when you disagree to make that public, if you wish. in some countries it would lead to arrest, torture and even death - so do you really pour scorn on people who exercise this democratic right? what then is the point of democracy?

Are the people of Gaza really going to their laptops/iphones everyday to check the latest emailed list of British student demonstrations?

Are there not better ways to voice 'disagreement' in the third ranked university in the the world than simply sitting around as a physical obstruction, in a place where there is basically no traffic other than law students. As for 'not in my name'.... what about the vast majority of our Faculty who do not support the protesters - is it right that our name is being hijacked?