The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

Nation states were never made to get us out of caves.

Think you missed the point Let me try a different way.

The minute collections of people get together - either small scale (caves) or large scale (geography), some will want to guard what they have, some will freely share what they have, some will want what someone else has without wanting to work for it. I'm not sure in your proposal that we do things differently, how we overcome this?

[BWFC_Insane]

Right I'll ask a question. Why do you think someone "born in England" should be any more entitled to live here than someone born in say Pakistan. Why should being born in a particular place give you greater rights that those born elsewhere. Why should we look after our "own" first? And who are our "own"?

I'll ask you one. Why should you live in your house and not let anyone who feels like it move in? The simple answer is that people born here have subsidised and supported the country for their lifetimes. It gives them a sense of belonging based on territory.

I am not saying anyone doesn't have the right to live anywhere. But to do that you have to satisfy the rules of the country you choose to live in. My father was an Irishman who came over here at eighteen. He fought for England in the war and lived here till he died. Nobody just moves in to another country willy-nilly. Territorial posession goes back to cavemen. If it didn't exist you yourself might find yourself with nowhere to call your own little corner of the universe. England, as a nation, ( make that the crown and government) has commited many wrongs in the name of power and greed in its history. We have also paid the price of our Empiring. It is, today though, one of the most civilised, compassionate and helpful countries in the atlas. In the last twenty years alone it has also, in the name of the much cliche'd "political correctness", lost much of its former traditions (Christmas, blackboards and blacksheep nonesense, the arguments about flags, matters of religion, people getting offended at anything and everything etc, etc, etc.) Has doing this made us a better country?If so, point out where please. I'd really like to know. I'll also reserve the right to disagree.

With a two/three year waiting list on most councils for houses, isn't it acceptable to restrain the immigration flow to sensible and managable levels? Is that classed as "looking after your own" or just plain common sense? Nobody's advocating a closed shop and racism has nothing to do with who comes here or who doesn't. What does matter is that we have rules and abide by them, and anybody who comes here should do the same. It's called "getting your own house in order" and hey, that's territorial too. Then again, a small thing called a recession might have a say in things right now.

Firstly we all seem to celebrate Christmas. Blackboards aren't being phased out for any other reason than whiteboards are better (ooo racist) and new media technologies have replaced them.

The media have rammed the PC thing down our throats but its not nearly half as bad as they like to pretend. Some people go over the top, but I'd still say thats better than 30/40 years ago when open racism was rife, and on the whole tolerated.

As for immigration we don't seem to mind these "foreigners" coming in when times are good to clean our toilets and shine our shoes. I mean what better way to start your day than for a doctor to shine your shit covered shoes at a train station?

But we seem to get very funny about it when we have to see these "foreigners" especially when they have the audacity to spend their time together. We also get a bit "angry" when times are a bit harder and we see these "foreigners" doing well, possibly because they have worked hard and deserve it.

Would you rather have a Muslim man from Pakistan who has worked hard, paid taxes here and done something useful or a nice white "English" person who has contributed nowt and drawn benefits his whole life.

Because thats where I'm at, it doesn't matter where you come from, its what you do whilst you are here.

As for celebrating our Britishness, the people that seem to think this is important are the same ones in my experience who don't want to discuss our history and for example aren't overly keen on discussing what happened within our "empire". Its fine to be proud of our achievements but then I think its hypocritical if we don't look at our atrocities, embarassments and failures. And if we honestly started doing that in equal measure we'd be a very depressed nation indeed!

[Lord Kangana]

Worthy.

Its an interesting one, and I don't purport to have the intelligence to come up with an all encompassing solution. But if we can really open a can of worms here, Keynes, just before his death, advocated a single currency and far more world-wide economic co-operation as an aid to ending poverty/deprevation/inequality/boom and bust. He also felt a good side effect would be less economically-driven wars (as most are, in reality). Its why we have the IMF, World Bank...only they aren't quite used in the form they were originally conceived.

Human beings aren't ready for a "world government" (or whatever), but sure as eggs is eggs, if we're to learn from the mistakes of the past, we will have to at the very least dilute our need to "belong" to something(and by inference,excluded from others). It will take years, and no doubt the unscrupulous amongst us will once again attempt to use it for their own selfish self-interest. But, to misuse your analogy, we no longer live in caves. We've progressed. We can again.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Worthy.

Its an interesting one, and I don't purport to have the intelligence to come up with an all encompassing solution. But if we can really open a can of worms here, Keynes, just before his death, advocated a single currency and far more world-wide economic co-operation as an aid to ending poverty/deprevation/inequality/boom and bust. He also felt a good side effect would be less economically-driven wars (as most are, in reality). Its why we have the IMF, World Bank...only they aren't quite used in the form they were originally conceived.

Human beings aren't ready for a "world government" (or whatever), but sure as eggs is eggs, if we're to learn from the mistakes of the past, we will have to at the very least dilute our need to "belong" to something(and by inference,excluded from others). It will take years, and no doubt the unscrupulous amongst us will once again attempt to use it for their own selfish self-interest. But, to misuse your analogy, we no longer live in caves. We've progressed. We can again.

Like football teams perhaps?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Keynes, just before his death, advocated a single currency and far more world-wide economic co-operation as an aid to ending poverty/deprevation/inequality/boom and bust.

He also warned against f*cking about with the interest rates, but that gets ignored too...

[TANGODANCER]

Firstly we all seem to celebrate Christmas

Is that as in Christ-mas, or the Winterfest and all that stuff?

. Blackboards aren't being phased out for any other reason than whiteboards are better (ooo racist) and new media technologies have replaced them.

The media have rammed the PC thing down our throats but its not nearly half as bad as they like to pretend. Some people go over the top, but I'd still say thats better than 30/40 years ago when open racism was rife, and on the whole tolerated.

As for immigration we don't seem to mind these "foreigners" coming in when times are good to clean our toilets and shine our shoes. I mean what better way to start your day than for a doctor to shine your shit covered shoes at a train station?

But we seem to get very funny about it when we have to see these "foreigners" especially when they have the audacity to spend their time together. We also get a bit "angry" when times are a bit harder and we see these "foreigners" doing well, possibly because they have worked hard and deserve it.

Would you rather have a Muslim man from Pakistan who has worked hard, paid taxes here and done something useful or a nice white "English" person who has contributed nowt and drawn benefits his whole life.

Because thats where I'm at, it doesn't matter where you come from, its what you do whilst you are here.

As for celebrating our Britishness, the people that seem to think this is important are the same ones in my experience who don't want to discuss our history and for example aren't overly keen on discussing what happened within our "empire". Its fine to be proud of our achievements but then I think its hypocritical if we don't look at our atrocities, embarassments and failures. And if we honestly started doing that in equal measure we'd be a very depressed nation indeed!

I think you're totally missing the mark mate.

[Worthy4England]

Worthy.

Its an interesting one, and I don't purport to have the intelligence to come up with an all encompassing solution. But if we can really open a can of worms here, Keynes, just before his death, advocated a single currency and far more world-wide economic co-operation as an aid to ending poverty/deprevation/inequality/boom and bust. He also felt a good side effect would be less economically-driven wars (as most are, in reality). Its why we have the IMF, World Bank...only they aren't quite used in the form they were originally conceived.

Human beings aren't ready for a "world government" (or whatever), but sure as eggs is eggs, if we're to learn from the mistakes of the past, we will have to at the very least dilute our need to "belong" to something(and by inference,excluded from others). It will take years, and no doubt the unscrupulous amongst us will once again attempt to use it for their own selfish self-interest. But, to misuse your analogy, we no longer live in caves. We've progressed. We can again.

I'm also an advocate of a single currency - and have been for some time (cue Europsceptics et. al.)

To get back to the original point, we have progressed in "unequal" measure, that doesn't make economic migrancy (in unlimited amounts - or just as a personal preference) a good thing, as all it's likely to do is reduce the common denominator not push it upwards. And none of these wonderful suggestions address the genetic issue which means that some people have what we consider "despotic" tendencies and as you correctly say, these people will still push "self interest"...I'm also fairly sure that "belonging" is a fairly fundamental building block of Maslow's model and human nature. I can only assume that with advances in genetic engineering, we will do away with such scurrilous traits.

[BWFC_Insane]

Firstly we all seem to celebrate Christmas

Is that as in Christ-mas, or the Winterfest and all that stuff?

. Blackboards aren't being phased out for any other reason than whiteboards are better (ooo racist) and new media technologies have replaced them.

The media have rammed the PC thing down our throats but its not nearly half as bad as they like to pretend. Some people go over the top, but I'd still say thats better than 30/40 years ago when open racism was rife, and on the whole tolerated.

As for immigration we don't seem to mind these "foreigners" coming in when times are good to clean our toilets and shine our shoes. I mean what better way to start your day than for a doctor to shine your shit covered shoes at a train station?

But we seem to get very funny about it when we have to see these "foreigners" especially when they have the audacity to spend their time together. We also get a bit "angry" when times are a bit harder and we see these "foreigners" doing well, possibly because they have worked hard and deserve it.

Would you rather have a Muslim man from Pakistan who has worked hard, paid taxes here and done something useful or a nice white "English" person who has contributed nowt and drawn benefits his whole life.

Because thats where I'm at, it doesn't matter where you come from, its what you do whilst you are here.

As for celebrating our Britishness, the people that seem to think this is important are the same ones in my experience who don't want to discuss our history and for example aren't overly keen on discussing what happened within our "empire". Its fine to be proud of our achievements but then I think its hypocritical if we don't look at our atrocities, embarassments and failures. And if we honestly started doing that in equal measure we'd be a very depressed nation indeed!

I think you're totally missing the mark mate.

Ok, let me ask a different question.

What examples do you have in modern society where you feel you "can't" do something you would have previously done.

What traditions have been damaged by "foreign" influences in our country?

[TANGODANCER]

Worthy.

Human beings aren't ready for a "world government" (or whatever), but sure as eggs is eggs, if we're to learn from the mistakes of the past, we will have to at the very least dilute our need to "belong" to something(and by inference,excluded from others). It will take years, and no doubt the unscrupulous amongst us will once again attempt to use it for their own selfish self-interest. But, to misuse your analogy, we no longer live in caves. We've progressed. We can again.

Everybody has a sense of belonging to something LK. Starting with family, relation, town, football team, golf clube, county, country etc etc. Where is the wrong in a sense of belonging? Exclusion from others? Well, there are a lot of people I'm happy to be excluded from; colour, creed, country has nothing to do with it, I just can't stand asshxles.

[Lord Kangana]

I think the point I'm trying to make is that belonging to something is usually at the expense of excluding others, and indeed excluding yourself from things. If there are any aficionados of The Simpsons on here, the Shelbyville episodes always make me p*ss myself. I'd like to think I belong to the human race, if you get what I mean.

[Worthy4England]

Right I'll ask a question. Why do you think someone "born in England" should be any more entitled to live here than someone born in say Pakistan. Why should being born in a particular place give you greater rights that those born elsewhere. Why should we look after our "own" first? And who are our "own"?

I'll ask you one. Why should you live in your house and not let anyone who feels like it move in? The simple answer is that people born here have subsidised and supported the country for their lifetimes. It gives them a sense of belonging based on territory.

I am not saying anyone doesn't have the right to live anywhere. But to do that you have to satisfy the rules of the country you choose to live in. My father was an Irishman who came over here at eighteen. He fought for England in the war and lived here till he died. Nobody just moves in to another country willy-nilly. Territorial posession goes back to cavemen. If it didn't exist you yourself might find yourself with nowhere to call your own little corner of the universe. England, as a nation, ( make that the crown and government) has commited many wrongs in the name of power and greed in its history. We have also paid the price of our Empiring. It is, today though, one of the most civilised, compassionate and helpful countries in the atlas. In the last twenty years alone it has also, in the name of the much cliche'd "political correctness", lost much of its former traditions (Christmas, blackboards and blacksheep nonesense, the arguments about flags, matters of religion, people getting offended at anything and everything etc, etc, etc.) Has doing this made us a better country?If so, point out where please. I'd really like to know. I'll also reserve the right to disagree.

With a two/three year waiting list on most councils for houses, isn't it acceptable to restrain the immigration flow to sensible and managable levels? Is that classed as "looking after your own" or just plain common sense? Nobody's advocating a closed shop and racism has nothing to do with who comes here or who doesn't. What does matter is that we have rules and abide by them, and anybody who comes here should do the same. It's called "getting your own house in order" and hey, that's territorial too. Then again, a small thing called a recession might have a say in things right now.

Firstly we all seem to celebrate Christmas. Blackboards aren't being phased out for any other reason than whiteboards are better (ooo racist) and new media technologies have replaced them.

The media have rammed the PC thing down our throats but its not nearly half as bad as they like to pretend. Some people go over the top, but I'd still say thats better than 30/40 years ago when open racism was rife, and on the whole tolerated.

As for immigration we don't seem to mind these "foreigners" coming in when times are good to clean our toilets and shine our shoes. I mean what better way to start your day than for a doctor to shine your shit covered shoes at a train station?

But we seem to get very funny about it when we have to see these "foreigners" especially when they have the audacity to spend their time together. We also get a bit "angry" when times are a bit harder and we see these "foreigners" doing well, possibly because they have worked hard and deserve it.

Would you rather have a Muslim man from Pakistan who has worked hard, paid taxes here and done something useful or a nice white "English" person who has contributed nowt and drawn benefits his whole life.

Because thats where I'm at, it doesn't matter where you come from, its what you do whilst you are here.

As for celebrating our Britishness, the people that seem to think this is important are the same ones in my experience who don't want to discuss our history and for example aren't overly keen on discussing what happened within our "empire". Its fine to be proud of our achievements but then I think its hypocritical if we don't look at our atrocities, embarassments and failures. And if we honestly started doing that in equal measure we'd be a very depressed nation indeed!

I'm happy to celebrate our Britishness - I'm proud to be British what do you want to talk about regarding our Empire? I'm also in favour of controlled immigration as opposed to what you appear to be advocating which is unlimited economic migrancy. I'm completely baffled by your point regarding foreigners "spending their time together" surely if integration is what your are striving for, then it makes no sense for this to occur in the manner that it currently does, where migrant communities band together to live in the same place?

Oh and on the Christmas thing. I'm sorry - my country is C of E. (I'm not) this should be accepted by people who want to come and live here.

[InsaneApache]

I wonder when words like exclusion and discrimination got a negative press? We all exclude and discriminate on a daily basis. After all, I wouldn't want any of you lot over for crimbo dinner, so I both discriminate and exclude. That doesn't make it a bad thing. Does it?

[Lord Kangana]

I advocate a single non- religious denomination specific mid-winter luncheon round at IA's. All in favour say "Aye"

Edited because I can't spell denomination.

[Worthy4England]

I advocate a single non- religious denomation specific mid-winter luncheon round at IA's. All in favour say "Aye"

I'm not going round to anyone's house who is called after the Apache's - I was in Cherokee at Cubs...

[Verbal]

I advocate a single non- religious denomation specific mid-winter luncheon round at IA's. All in favour say "Aye"

I'm not going round to anyone's house who is called after the Apache's - I was in Cherokee at Cubs...

It's ok, he's insane...

[TANGODANCER]

I think we've drifted well away from the main topic. I'll I claimed was that a party who believes it isn't a sin to be English (in England) and proud of it, and thinks we should get our own house in order before all else makes some sort of sense to me. That's all. It's unlikely they'll get in anyway in favour of the "experienced" opposition.

[Prufrock]

Well this kicked off after I went .

First of all I claimed they were idiots because one of the pledges of their London Mayor candidate was to pull England out of the EU. Whether or not you think leaving the EU is an idiotic idea (which it is), the idea that it's a decision the Mayor of London has any influence in, is.

I don't automatically equate nationalism and racism, but they seem to go increasingly hand in hand. No-body is stopping anybody having Xmas, or nativities, or the St George, or any of that business. Yes, some people prefer to say winter holiday or whatever, but no-one's stopping anybody else not doing. You were born by a geographical quirk in an arbitrarily decided 'nation'. My heart bleeds for these people who can't get on the property ladder, and surely securing them real estate is a bigger priority than making sure people from pitifully poor countries can eat, drink, and have a roof over their heads. It's just an easy excuse for that typically british (if we want national identity) of snorting with rage over the morning newspaper about Europe, and France, and foreigners. Look at all those Polish, coming over here, doing our jobs, for the price they quoted, on time, with a smile on their face. Bastards. Funny no-one was complaining in the 50's and 60's when immigrant workers came over to do the jobs no-one else wanted, and kept this 'country' going.

Clearly, I don't get nationalism. I was born here, and it says so on my passport. That's about it. There's a lot about Britain that is great, a lot that's not. I have no problem with people who do feel a link to that history, those customs, as long as they don't think it's a relevant reason to discriminate. I don't favour a complete open doors policy, because it would never work economically, but if it could, I'd be all for it.

"It's about where you're from, it's where you're at"

[TANGODANCER]

Well this kicked off after I went .

I don't automatically equate nationalism and racism, but they seem to go increasingly hand in hand. No-body is stopping anybody having Xmas, or nativities, or the St George, or any of that business. Yes, some people prefer to say winter holiday or whatever, but no-one's stopping anybody else not doing. You were born by a geographical quirk in an arbitrarily decided 'nation'. My heart bleeds for these people who can't get on the property ladder, and surely securing them real estate is a bigger priority than making sure people from pitifully poor countries can eat, drink, and have a roof over their heads. It's just an easy excuse for that typically british (if we want national identity) of snorting with rage over the morning newspaper about Europe, and France, and foreigners. Look at all those Polish, coming over here, doing our jobs, for the price they quoted, on time, with a smile on their face. Bastards. Funny no-one was complaining in the 50's and 60's when immigrant workers came over to do the jobs no-one else wanted, and kept this 'country' going.

Clearly, I don't get nationalism. I was born here, and it says so on my passport. That's about it. There's a lot about Britain that is great, a lot that's not. I have no problem with people who do feel a link to that history, those customs, as long as they don't think it's a relevant reason to discriminate. I don't favour a complete open doors policy, because it would never work economically, but if it could, I'd be all for it.

"It's about where you're from, it's where you're at"

Should there have been a "not" in there somewhere?

Pru. I could go into a long diatribe about the so-many reasons you are wrong. At twenty, you are a product of ideal-world thinking and dismiss the past before your time as if it never actually happened. In as much as I respect intelligence in anyone I also am much more realistic about what is against what you'd like it to be. The reasons it will never be the said "perfect world" are more to do with human nature than rules and regulations. The planet is not composed of a level-headed lifeform of bonhommie and goodwill, it is more a 50-50 ratio of those and their opposites- ie, asshxles and thus will ever be so. The nature of the beast-if you will.

Today's younger generation are persistently fond of telling people "wake up and smell the coffee"; you might well do to take some of your own advice. No disrespect meant or intended; I fully respect your right to your view. I just happen to have a different, perhaps a slightly more cynical, one. Read your history and instead of seeing the results of battles and defeats, heroes and villains, look in there as to why any of it happened. The result will inevitably be of someone with a vision of an idealistic world (their view). Being English is the reason we are not all speaking Spanish or French or worse, German. Our little country has much to be proud of as well as ashamed . Our language is spoken by the world, our way of life desired by millions. Should all that go for nothing in view of scrubbing our "nationality" and all that goes with it? Methinks not good friend, at least not in my lifetime, thank you.

Rant over. As you were.

[William the White]

Well this kicked off after I went .

I don't automatically equate nationalism and racism, but they seem to go increasingly hand in hand. No-body is stopping anybody having Xmas, or nativities, or the St George, or any of that business. Yes, some people prefer to say winter holiday or whatever, but no-one's stopping anybody else not doing. You were born by a geographical quirk in an arbitrarily decided 'nation'. My heart bleeds for these people who can't get on the property ladder, and surely securing them real estate is a bigger priority than making sure people from pitifully poor countries can eat, drink, and have a roof over their heads. It's just an easy excuse for that typically british (if we want national identity) of snorting with rage over the morning newspaper about Europe, and France, and foreigners. Look at all those Polish, coming over here, doing our jobs, for the price they quoted, on time, with a smile on their face. Bastards. Funny no-one was complaining in the 50's and 60's when immigrant workers came over to do the jobs no-one else wanted, and kept this 'country' going.

Clearly, I don't get nationalism. I was born here, and it says so on my passport. That's about it. There's a lot about Britain that is great, a lot that's not. I have no problem with people who do feel a link to that history, those customs, as long as they don't think it's a relevant reason to discriminate. I don't favour a complete open doors policy, because it would never work economically, but if it could, I'd be all for it.

"It's about where you're from, it's where you're at"

Should there have been a "not" in there somewhere?

Pru. I could go into a long diatribe about the so-many reasons you are wrong. At twenty, you are a product of ideal-world thinking and dismiss the past before your time as if it never actually happened. In as much as I respect intelligence in anyone I also am much more realistic about what is against what you'd like it to be. The reasons it will never be the said "perfect world" are more to do with human nature than rules and regulations. The planet is not composed of a level-headed lifeform of bonhommie and goodwill, it is more a 50-50 ratio of those and their opposites- ie, asshxles and thus will ever be so. The nature of the beast-if you will.

Today's younger generation are persistently fond of telling people "wake up and smell the coffee"; you might well do to take some of your own advice. No disrespect meant or intended; I fully respect your right to your view. I just happen to have a different, perhaps a slightly more cynical, one. Read your history and instead of seeing the results of battles and defeats, heroes and villains, look in there as to why any of it happened. The result will inevitably be of someone with a vision of an idealistic world (their view). Being English is the reason we are not all speaking Spanish or French or worse, German. Our little country has much to be proud of as well as ashamed . Our language is spoken by the world, our way of life desired by millions. Should all that go for nothing in view of scrubbing our "nationality" and all that goes with it? Methinks not good friend, at least not in my lifetime, thank you.

Rant over. As you were.

Just to identify two of the more important languages that contributed to the development of the mongrel tongue that is English. The other main one being Norse. Guess there must be lots of ancient brit celtic elements in there somewhere, but they're harder to detect.

Pru is more correct than you, imo, tango, speaking as one of your generation, pretty much.

And, sorry to say, i reckon very few historical battles were fought in the name of idealism - and not many claimed as such (though, sure excuses a-plenty... often 'they started it').

I think, if this conversation is to continue, it might be useful to distinguish between 'nationalism' - which is an assertion of the superiority of your nation compared to others - and 'patriotism' - which is an expression of love for your native land - which can, of course, celebrate its diversity, tolerance, poetry and weather in may. ..

Feel pretty immune from both, myself, but the first i find vile and the second can feel warm about in the right circumstances...

[TANGODANCER]

Just to identify two of the more important languages that contributed to the development of the mongrel tongue that is English. The other main one being Norse. Guess there must be lots of ancient brit celtic elements in there somewhere, but they're harder to detect.

Pru is more correct than you, imo, tango, speaking as one of your generation, pretty much.

And, sorry to say, i reckon very few historical battles were fought in the name of idealism - and not many claimed as such (though, sure excuses a-plenty... often 'they started it').

I think, if this conversation is to continue, it might be useful to distinguish between 'nationalism' - which is an assertion of the superiority of your nation compared to others - and 'patriotism' - which is an expression of love for your native land - which can, of course, celebrate its diversity, tolerance, poetry and weather in may. ..

Feel pretty immune from both, myself, but the first i find vile and the second can feel warm about in the right circumstances...

I think you know exactly what I meant re the present English language, WTW, as for the bit in bold. Do tell, I'm all ears. The rest, I stand by what I said. It's an opinion, just like yours.