Watching Football Is Not A Crime - Bolton Fan Section 27ed

[Montreal Wanderer]

I am pleased at this outcome as the initial story was rather upsetting. We do give our law enforcement great powers, and rightly so, but they must be used responsibly. Rounding up a bunch of people on the shaky basis that some of them might at some future time cause trouble is not responsible. Packing the lot in coaches with no toilet facilities and transporting them against their will for many miles was completely irresponsible. I'm not sure why only one person got the award and what happens to the others. Over here we have class action suits and all victims are compensated. perhaps the GM police will settle with all others on a similar basis.

[americantrotter]

Sounds like W. and Cheney taught the GMP about crowd control.

[blurred]

I am pleased at this outcome as the initial story was rather upsetting. We do give our law enforcement great powers, and rightly so, but they must be used responsibly. Rounding up a bunch of people on the shaky basis that some of them might at some future time cause trouble is not responsible. Packing the lot in coaches with no toilet facilities and transporting them against their will for many miles was completely irresponsible. I'm not sure why only one person got the award and what happens to the others. Over here we have class action suits and all victims are compensated. perhaps the GM police will settle with all others on a similar basis.

Legal procedings are ongoing for a number of other fans, Monty (around 20 or so, but I think more - not sure of the precise numbers), but we can't publicise them yet as compensation hasn't been agreed for them, and our advice has been to not potentially jeopardise these before they've been officially agreed.

We ended up having to send out the press release on this case as the story had begun to leak through forums, etc, through people who know Lyndon, as he's had his money for a little while now.

[Prufrock]

Well done FSF and Liberty, and Stoke as well. I'm sure I read they had underwritten the legal costs?

[Montreal Wanderer]

I am pleased at this outcome as the initial story was rather upsetting. We do give our law enforcement great powers, and rightly so, but they must be used responsibly. Rounding up a bunch of people on the shaky basis that some of them might at some future time cause trouble is not responsible. Packing the lot in coaches with no toilet facilities and transporting them against their will for many miles was completely irresponsible. I'm not sure why only one person got the award and what happens to the others. Over here we have class action suits and all victims are compensated. perhaps the GM police will settle with all others on a similar basis.

Legal procedings are ongoing for a number of other fans, Monty (around 20 or so, but I think more - not sure of the precise numbers), but we can't publicise them yet as compensation hasn't been agreed for them, and our advice has been to not potentially jeopardise these before they've been officially agreed.

We ended up having to send out the press release on this case as the story had begun to leak through forums, etc, through people who know Lyndon, as he's had his money for a little while now.

Do you not have class action suits in the UK - saves a lot of time....

[blurred]

Well done FSF and Liberty, and Stoke as well. I'm sure I read they had underwritten the legal costs?

Yep, they'd agreed to underwrite £20k of legal costs should it be necessary, and the FSF did likewise. We also made the same decision for the Plymouth fans, as these were the first two, high-profile abuses of it when it came to football fans, and figured we should make a stand and hopefully stop its continued use. Fortunately for us, GMP and SYP have conceded they were in the wrong without the need for a court case.

[Bruce Rioja]

Legal procedings are ongoing for a number of other fans, Monty (around 20 or so, but I think more - not sure of the precise numbers), but we can't publicise them yet as compensation hasn't been agreed for them, and our advice has been to not potentially jeopardise these before they've been officially agreed.

We ended up having to send out the press release on this case as the story had begun to leak through forums, etc, through people who know Lyndon, as he's had his money for a little while now.

Hang on, have I missed the point here? I thought that the key issue/debate would be as to how the Police manage future football crowds. From what you've written here, Blurred, the key objective is simply that of exacting recompense.

As a football supporter I was going to congratulate you on the outcome, but I don't think I will now if that's your real agenda.

[blurred]

Legal procedings are ongoing for a number of other fans, Monty (around 20 or so, but I think more - not sure of the precise numbers), but we can't publicise them yet as compensation hasn't been agreed for them, and our advice has been to not potentially jeopardise these before they've been officially agreed.

We ended up having to send out the press release on this case as the story had begun to leak through forums, etc, through people who know Lyndon, as he's had his money for a little while now.

Hang on, have I missed the point here? I thought that the key issue/debate would be as to how the Police manage future football crowds. From what you've written here, Blurred, the key objective is simply that of exacting recompense.

As a football supporter I was going to congratulate you on the outcome, but I don't think I will now if that's your real agenda.

Erm, really not quite sure what you're taking issue with here at all, Bruce. The police have been taken to task for effectively falsely imprisoning a group of people, and as such they are being pressed for compensation by those who were wronged. They have admitted to Liberty and our solicitors that they were culpable for serious misuse of s27 powers, and will not use them in this fashion again.

There is a separate case involving South Yorkshire Police and a group of Plymouth fans, who were escorted pretty much the whole length of the country under s27 powers as well, who are also making a claim against SYP for effective false imprisonment. SYP have likewise conceded that they seriously misused these powers.

It is about setting a precedent that police cannot use powers in this fashion against football fans, transporting innocent people large distances (also in not the nicest of conditions). I doubt that GMP or SYP will be using s27 against large groups of football fans, and given the publicity that this case has attracted, one hopes that other forces will take note and not do similar in the future. If they do, then I'm sure that we'll hear about it and join forces with Liberty again to take them to task.

The 'key objective' is not extracting recompense, but at the same time we're not going to prejudge the amount of compensation individuals will be offered by the GMP, or claim a victory or amount that doesn't materialise. We haven't written in our story how many are claiming, or how much they are 'expected' to get, as that may jeopardise awards given by GMP to those individuals, or those who may see this story and see that they are entitled to claim from GMP over their treatment. The story here is that Lyndon has won his battle for compensation because of his treatment, which can only be seen as a result for him, and as a helpful precedent to stop GMP or other forces doing similar to other fans.

Congratulate us or not, I think it's pretty clear that it's a good result for the individual and group concerned, and to all fans in the future that police are less likely to use this legislation, or that there's a great precedent for further claims if they're daft enough to use it again.

[Bruce Rioja]

What I was saying, Blurred, and I accept that I may differ from many here, more so given the current clamour-for-compo mindset, is that if I was one of the Stoke fans stuck on a bus, holding a cupfull of piss and missing our biggest league game in 20+ years then what I'd want to see is whoever gave that instruction brought to task. I'd want to hear that man or woman answer my questions (and there'd be plenty), and, when proved to be the incompetent, egregious tosser that they are I'd like to see them removed from a rank that's clearly above their payscale.

I'd want it made clear that this sort of thing would not be allowed to happen to football supporters again and that if it did then people would be answerable. If any money was to come my way then it'd be for all expenses incurred, that is all.

In your earlier post you only talk of financial compensation. Is that your be-and-end-all? Are you a football supporter's association or an outpost of Claims Direct?

[blurred]

I'd want it made clear that this sort of thing would not be allowed to happen to football supporters again and that if it did then people would be answerable. If any money was to come my way then it'd be for all expenses incurred, that is all.

Is that not what taking them to court means, though? And them admitting liability that they've misused their powers? What more do you want? The appropriate legal avenues have been explored and resulted in a victory for Lyndon (and others).

There are further legal arguments ongoing as to the wider use of s27 powers (what can be defined as 'a locality' under the legislation) and that will come to a hearing to see whether or not there is a judicial review on the matter. This won't just affect football fans but the general public as a whole, as it'll serve as guidance to all forces as to how they can/can't use s27 powers. On all the other legal points raised by ourselves/Liberty the GMP have conceded.

I'm not quite sure how you can 'make it clear that this would not be allowed to happen to football supporters again'. What they did was illegal, and they've admitted as much. Hence why they've compensated those who they illegally detained. There's no guarantee that this can't happen again - the legislation remains on the statute book, and theoretically they could use it again and we'd have to go through this whole rigmarole again, but at least we'd have precedent on our side. Other police forces may wish to use it, too. But then high-profile, expensive victories such as this will hopefully be persuasion enough that other forces won't try to use this legislation. I'm sure that these cases will be going on the police wires throughout the country to make them aware that they can't use this power in this fashion.

In your earlier post you only talk of financial compensation. Is that your be-and-end-all? Are you a football supporter's association or an outpost of Claims Direct?

Because that's the tangible outcome of our complaint. I think it's clear from all my posts on this topic that my views on this are not all money-driven, and that you're seemingly picking a fight that doesn't exist.

We're not 'claims direct', but that's the natural outcome of the abuse of police powers, and hopefully the deterrent that the GMP (and other forces) require to avoid using these powers against fans in this fashion again.

Strangely enough (and it may be pure coincidence) that the fuss we kicked up when this initially happened, and the fact that we got Liberty onboard with the GMP and SYP, we've not seen any other police forces attempt to use s27 powers in this fashion again throughout the rest of the season.

[TANGODANCER]

"Fans" covers an awful lot of humanity Blurred, and as such, there is an element of bollox amongst this lot. Do you wish the police to ignore the pxssed-up nutters who cause trouble as a priority rather then apply the sectioning fairly in the way it was meant to be? I mean ,who ever heard of a drunken Scouser pxssing in somebody's crash helmet and then twxtting the bloke when he objected. Couldn't happen, except I was nearby and saw it. There were hordes of them at Burnden Park on several occasion all behaving in similar fashion. Should we ring a limousine for them?

You see Blurred, much as the police occasionally go over the top, their basic function is to prevent trouble, not cause it. The tax payers are hard enough hit supporting the police forces without contributing to every "victim" of police attention who goes to court looking for compensation. Somewhere, common sense should prevail surely. I mean some elements of football fans are such innocent little wallflowers aren't they? Sorry, but the words Scouser, victim and compensation are heard just a little too often for my comfort these days.

[blurred]

"Fans" covers an awful lot of humanity Blurred, and as such, there is an element of bollox amongst this lot. Do you wish the police to ignore the pxssed-up nutters who cause trouble as a priority rather then apply the sectioning fairly in the way it was meant to be? I mean ,who ever heard of a drunken Scouser pxssing in somebody's crash helmet and then twxtting the bloke when he objected. Couldn't happen, except I was nearby and saw it. There were hordes of them at Burnden Park on several occasion all behaving in similar fashion. Should we ring a limousine for them?

Not at all, but then point me out where I've advocated that they should ignore them.

Point out where there were any 'pissed up nutters' in the group of Stoke fans.

The landlord of the pub has said that they were all behaving themselves, were not rowdy, and would happily have them back (and even lay on food for them).

You see Blurred, much as the police occasionally go over the top, their basic function is to prevent trouble, not cause it. The tax payers are hard enough hit supporting the police forces without contributing to every "victim" of police attention who goes to court looking for compensation. Somewhere, common sense should prevail surely.

Again, I don't disagree. But common sense wasn't used when rounding up 80 or so Stoke fans and forcibly bussing them all the way back to Stoke because of some vague 'intelligence' about a few individuals who were in the pub. If they had 'intelligence', they'd've been able to identify those fans about whom they had fears and dealt with them accordingly, rather than misusing legislation clearly not defined for the purpose, and in a possibly illegal fashion (pending the outcome of the judicial review as to specific police powers under the section), against scores of innocent people.

s27 is geared towards alcohol-related offences, none of which were committed here. It was used as a tool to move on a group of football fans because the police wanted to move them on, as a result of 'intelligence'. It's not as if the police don't have enough tools at their disposal, particularly involving football fans, that they have to resort to these sorts of tactics.

I'll support the police for doing a difficult job (I wouldn't want to go round Concert Square on a Friday night at chucking out time, they must face all manner of abuse), but I'll definitely stand up to make sure that they are doing their job properly, and support any action taken when it's proven that they are negligent/unlawful in their actions.

I mean some elements of football fans are such innocent little wallflowers aren't they? Sorry, but the words Scouser, victim and compensation are heard just a little too often for my comfort these days.

I knew that somewhere we'd find the 'it's compensation culture gone mad' line, and you're entitled to that viewpoint.

None of the Stoke fans were Scousers, to my knowledge, so I'm not sure what Liverpool has to do with this.