The Politics Thread

[thebish]

Bish, unless you and i want to go ask everyone, we can only rely on census and t'internet.

The following statements would thereby render you 10% statement also 'bollocks'

There are 37.3 million people in England and Wales who state their religion as Christian. The percentage of Christians is similar between the two countries but the proportion of people who follow other religions is 6.0 per cent in England compared with 1.5 per cent in Wales.

From http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001 ... p#religion

2004 data:
A government report revealed that about 74% of adults in England and Wales regard themselves as Christians.

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/uk_rel2.htm

But obviously, you know better

clearly I do!


hmmm... well - I go to church every week and can confidently state that in Upminster there are NOT 70% of the population going to church - it's a bit closer to 4 or 5 per cent when we last did a rough guess for this parfticular area....

maybe it's different where you live - better build some bigger churches!


(actually - what is happening here is a simple difference of definition. I don't consider the self-categorization "christian" on a survey to be a reliable measure. In my experience - that simply means "not muslim or anything weird". My definition of a christian is somebody who actually acts in some tangible way on that label. Now - you may say I am being arrogant in not allowing people so easily to define themselves - but - for the purposes of the question we were discussing - politicians appealing to the "christian vote" - what on earth does that mean unless you have a clear idea who you are talking about? Incidentally - I have no idea at all what the "christian vote" might be and what might appeal to it. The "Christian party" had a go - but they just look like UKIP with hymn books - other than the BNP they are probably the last party on earth I would consider voting for - so - in terms of this christian - EPIC FAIL! - as the kidz might say!)

I also notice that one of your stats comes from a site that seems to equate "ethicity" and "religion"

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

[ohjimmyjimmy]

I think the OP (crayons) meant the predominant Christian vote as being the 70-odd percent of the UK that views itself as being so, whether or not they go to church...i don't think that debate about what makes a Christian was intended at all !

I'm not a church goer, but i do class myself as a Christian, maybe just because it defines me as not being a follower of any other religion, but even so it's a label i'm comfortable with having

[ohjimmyjimmy]

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

If we're talking bizarre stats Bish...you said 1 in 10 was the Christian vote in the UK! Still awaiting an explanation why you ever thought that was true?!

[Lennon'sEleven]

Bish, unless you and i want to go ask everyone, we can only rely on census and t'internet.

The following statements would thereby render you 10% statement also 'bollocks'

There are 37.3 million people in England and Wales who state their religion as Christian. The percentage of Christians is similar between the two countries but the proportion of people who follow other religions is 6.0 per cent in England compared with 1.5 per cent in Wales.

From http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001 ... p#religion

2004 data:
A government report revealed that about 74% of adults in England and Wales regard themselves as Christians.

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/uk_rel2.htm

But obviously, you know better

clearly I do!


hmmm... well - I go to church every week and can confidently state that in Upminster there are NOT 70% of the population going to church - it's a bit closer to 4 or 5 per cent when we last did a rough guess for this parfticular area....

maybe it's different where you live - better build some bigger churches!


(actually - what is happening here is a simple difference of definition. I don't consider the self-categorization "christian" on a survey to be a reliable measure. In my experience - that simply means "not muslim or anything weird". My definition of a christian is somebody who actually acts in some tangible way on that label. Now - you may say I am being arrogant in not allowing people so easily to define themselves - but - for the purposes of the question we were discussing - politicians appealing to the "christian vote" - what on earth does that mean unless you have a clear idea who you are talking about? Incidentally - I have no idea at all what the "christian vote" might be and what might appeal to it. The "Christian party" had a go - but they just look like UKIP with hymn books - other than the BNP they are probably the last party on earth I would consider voting for - so - in terms of this christian - EPIC FAIL! - as the kidz might say!)

I also notice that one of your stats comes from a site that seems to equate "ethicity" and "religion"

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

I really don't want to wade into this, but surely you can be Christian without going to church. Plenty of people live by Christian values and pray at home. Also, there are probably more churches operating out of community centres and abandoned office blocks in Upminster than you might think. Christianity is amany-headed beast. It most certainly is not a synonym for White British.

Anyway, I don't know about 70% or 10%, but I am prepared to say it's probably somewhere inbetween.

[thebish]

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

If we're talking bizarre stats Bish...you said 1 in 10 was the Christian vote in the UK! Still awaiting an explanation why you ever thought that was true?!

because the last time I saw stats for "church-going" christians (for want of a better label!) - it was about 10% - but that was a while ago - I'd imagine it is closer to 6 or 7% now - maybe less - but I was being generous in the face of your 70%!

part of the problem of church-going stats is that the goalposts have moved. "regular" church attendance used to mean - every week. That has now changed - and if you see stats today it is now "at least once a month".

Nowadys some research puts it as high as 15% (at least once amonth) - some as low as 7% (at least once a month) - so - 10% is not really "bizarre"!

[thebish]

I really don't want to wade into this, but surely you can be Christian without going to church. Plenty of people live by Christian values and pray at home. Also, there are probably more churches operating out of community centres and abandoned office blocks in Upminster than you might think. Christianity is amany-headed beast. It most certainly is not a synonym for White British.

Anyway, I don't know about 70% or 10%, but I am prepared to say it's probably somewhere inbetween.

I think it is somewhere LESS than both, not in-between.

in the post you respond to - I didn't use the "church-going" delineator - I actually said: "who actually acts in some tangible way on that label."

also..

Also, there are probably more churches operating out of community centres and abandoned office blocks in Upminster than you might think.

no - really - there aren't.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

If we're talking bizarre stats Bish...you said 1 in 10 was the Christian vote in the UK! Still awaiting an explanation why you ever thought that was true?!

because the last time I saw stats for "church-going" christians (for want of a better label!) - it was about 10% - but that was a while ago - I'd imagine it is closer to 6 or 7% now - maybe less - but I was being generous in the face of your 70%!

part of the problem of church-going stats is that the goalposts have moved. "regular" church attendance used to mean - every week. That has now changed - and if you see stats today it is now "at least once a month".

Nowadys some research puts it as high as 15% (at least once amonth) - some as low as 7% (at least once a month) - so - 10% is not really "bizarre"!

But are they going to church to pray, or to vote...?

Anyway, religious discussions never end well, neither do political ones...combine the two and we're all dooooooooooooomed Bish !

[thebish]

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

If we're talking bizarre stats Bish...you said 1 in 10 was the Christian vote in the UK! Still awaiting an explanation why you ever thought that was true?!

because the last time I saw stats for "church-going" christians (for want of a better label!) - it was about 10% - but that was a while ago - I'd imagine it is closer to 6 or 7% now - maybe less - but I was being generous in the face of your 70%!

part of the problem of church-going stats is that the goalposts have moved. "regular" church attendance used to mean - every week. That has now changed - and if you see stats today it is now "at least once a month".

Nowadys some research puts it as high as 15% (at least once amonth) - some as low as 7% (at least once a month) - so - 10% is not really "bizarre"!

But are they going to church to pray, or to vote?

they are coming to ogle me!

[ohjimmyjimmy]

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

If we're talking bizarre stats Bish...you said 1 in 10 was the Christian vote in the UK! Still awaiting an explanation why you ever thought that was true?!

because the last time I saw stats for "church-going" christians (for want of a better label!) - it was about 10% - but that was a while ago - I'd imagine it is closer to 6 or 7% now - maybe less - but I was being generous in the face of your 70%!

part of the problem of church-going stats is that the goalposts have moved. "regular" church attendance used to mean - every week. That has now changed - and if you see stats today it is now "at least once a month".

Nowadys some research puts it as high as 15% (at least once amonth) - some as low as 7% (at least once a month) - so - 10% is not really "bizarre"!

But are they going to church to pray, or to vote?

they are coming to ogle me!

Yikes...all the more reason to move away from Upminster !

[thebish]

Anyway, religious discussions never end well, neither do political ones...combine the two and we're all dooooooooooooomed Bish !

on that we can agree! Look - the sky is falling in!

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Anyway, religious discussions never end well, neither do political ones...combine the two and we're all dooooooooooooomed Bish !

on that we can agree! Look - the sky is falling in!

Damn Lib-Cons !

[Lennon'sEleven]

So, Andy Burnham's thrown his hat in th Labour leader race.

And Diane Abbott. That's the diversity question answered, then.

[William the White]

I also notice that one of your stats comes from a site that seems to equate "ethicity" and "religion"

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

An overstatement - it's actually one of the eternal debates - race, ethnicity, religion. It has been very significant historically for political reasons - often truly disturbing ones. The expulsion of the Jews from spain in the 15th century was, originally, a religious expulsion. Jews that 'converted' to christianity were allowed to stay. One hundred years later their descendents were expelled on racial grounds... The Nazis were very exercised by the 'problem' of who was a Jew - because they wanted, obviously, to be really fair in deciding who they murdered. The minutes of the 'Final Solution' meeting at Wannsee in early 1941 (I think) see them talking earnestly about half-Jews and quarter-Jews, and Jews with German wives or husbands and their children etc... Zionists had the same problem in promulgating the Law of Return, entitling all Jews to 'return' to Palestine and, i think, eventually had to decide on religion or ethnicity - so Ethiopian Jews, black africans rather than Semites and Arab Jews living in Moslem lands were allowed entry into Israel.

By the way, I don't think mummy is an anti-Semite, and he has previously expressed his view that Milliband would be a formidable opponent for the Tories. To which, in the context of this discussion, i might say 'amen to that'...

[thebish]

I also notice that one of your stats comes from a site that seems to equate "ethicity" and "religion"

this is undoubtedly true with Judaism - but (I would argue) NOT with christianity - "christianity" is not an ethnic category - but it is often treated as if it is - hence your bizarre stats!

An overstatement - it's actually one of the eternal debates - race, ethnicity, religion. It has been very significant historically for political reasons - often truly disturbing ones. The expulsion of the Jews from spain in the 15th century was, originally, a religious expulsion. Jews that 'converted' to christianity were allowed to stay. One hundred years later their descendents were expelled on racial grounds... The Nazis were very exercised by the 'problem' of who was a Jew - because they wanted, obviously, to be really fair in deciding who they murdered. The minutes of the 'Final Solution' meeting at Wannsee in early 1941 (I think) see them talking earnestly about half-Jews and quarter-Jews, and Jews with German wives or husbands and their children etc... Zionists had the same problem in promulgating the Law of Return, entitling all Jews to 'return' to Palestine and, i think, eventually had to decide on religion or ethnicity - so Ethiopian Jews, black africans rather than Semites and Arab Jews living in Moslem lands were allowed entry into Israel.

By the way, I don't think mummy is an anti-Semite, and he has previously expressed his view that Milliband would be a formidable opponent for the Tories. To which, in the context of this discussion, i might say 'amen to that'...

agreed - an overstatement - sorry - but a lot more true than it is for christianity.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

So, Andy Burnham's thrown his hat in th Labour leader race.

And Diane Abbott. That's the diversity question answered, then.

I like Andy Burnham - he seems a genuine enough bloke, from the North West, and even an almunus of my college (and its drinking society) at university.

I'm not sure he's got the personality to be a 'leader' though.

As for Abbott - I was only thinking a couple of days ago that she should run, but I don't think she's got any sort of base of support in the party. I suppose the fact that people like me like her in her role alongside Michael Portillo on TV is exactly what puts a lot of people off (and I suspect quite a few are actually jealous of her profile). And, horror of horrors, she sent her boy to private school.

[malcd1]

So, Andy Burnham's thrown his hat in th Labour leader race.

And Diane Abbott. That's the diversity question answered, then.

I like Andy Burnham - he seems a genuine enough bloke, from the North West, and even an almunus of my college (and its drinking society) at university.

I'm not sure he's got the personality to be a 'leader' though.

As for Abbott - I was only thinking a couple of days ago that she should run, but I don't think she's got any sort of base of support in the party. I suppose the fact that people like me like her in her role alongside Michael Portillo on TV is exactly what puts a lot of people off (and I suspect quite a few are actually jealous of her profile). And, horror of horrors, she sent her boy to private school.

I take it you mean she is an hypocrite like the rest of them. After criticising Tony Blair and Harriet Harman for sending their children to private school she goes and does the same.

Ms Abbott was quoted as saying, "I had to choose between my reputation as a politician and my son."

In other words why should I send my son to the failing local comprehensive school when I can make the choice to send him to a private school. Hypocrite doesn't really do it justice does it.

And just so you don't jump down my neck as being a toff basher mummy, I would also send my children to private schools (And get a good education), IF I could afford it.

I was lucky, I got the chance to go to a grammar school. What choice do most children get in inner city areas?

[Lord Kangana]

Hmmm, I think the sensible middle ground here would be that rather than offering "choice", why don't we just make all schools good?

Ridiculous, I know.

[William the White]

Hmmm, I think the sensible middle ground here would be that rather than offering "choice", why don't we just make all schools good?

Ridiculous, I know.

So, would you close down all 'public' schools LK?

I would...

And all religiously based ones...

Education secular, universal, free and impossible to buy privilege...

[Lord Kangana]

I don't have any particular issue with them, but if we're serious about education then market forces would see to them. The serious about education bit is the key point here, if you're looking to pick me up on this.

[CAPSLOCK]

Hmmm, I think the sensible middle ground here would be that rather than offering "choice", why don't we just make all schools good?

Ridiculous, I know.

So, would you close down all 'public' schools LK?

I would...

And all religiously based ones...

Education secular, universal, free and impossible to buy privilege...

My kids are both at Catholic schools

It means most of the attendees have English as their first language

I think that's a good thing, so until the system ensures my kids can get a fair crack at the teachers time, I'd prefer to keep them open