The Politics Thread

[Hoboh]

"Chancellor Merkel would say that, as everyone expects her country to act as paymaster in this crisis, she should be running the show... in fact, she's probably telling the others as much right now."

The Germans and French already take far more out of the UK in trade terms than we gain from them would we really be worse off out than in when they remove or dictate our financial sectors as well? Why do you think most large corperations are against it? We will be second class in Europe if further intergration takes place anyway being in a club where you can only use the tradesmans entrance and influence the Christmas decorations ain't worth naff all.

[Lord Kangana]

Do they really though? You know, actually do they?

[Hoboh]

Do they really though? You know, actually do they?

Utility companys. the huge ammount of German cars or cars made under different names but owned by German and French company's

In 2010 Germany exported 179 billion Euros more than it imported. 60% of its exports were to the rest of the EU.

The German surplus is matched by the southern states’ combined deficits. Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Italy had a combined deficit about as large as Germany’s combined surplus. They like Germany do a lot of trade within the EU. They recognise that Germany has become more competitive than them. They want a way to pay for the goods they buy from Germany. They seek loans or grants from the surplus country to pay the bills. Germany is not keen to send them grants, and is trying to restrict the borrowing. The southern states are forced in to austerity measures, to curb their appetite for German products.

In a normal single currency area, backed by a single country, these surpluses and deficits are financed much more easily. If one region of the UK has high unemployment, tax revenues from London and the south-east are collected and sent to pay the benefit bills. If one or more region falls behind, the central government sends it more state cash for local government, for education and health. If one or more region grows slowly, there are regional policies to locate more public sector jobs and to attract more private industry to the troubled area. These do not always work, but the combined impact of the very large sums of money transferred makes it politically tolerable.

Now tell me the EU is not all about Germany!!!!! The French will learn that the hard way.

[Lord Kangana]

Sorry, you're using an example of a very successful European manufacturing country on why Europe is a mess hoboh?

Have you not thought about this for a minute? Or two?

[Hoboh]

Sorry, you're using an example of a very successful European manufacturing country on why Europe is a mess hoboh?

Have you not thought about this for a minute? Or two?

Germany is not keen to send them grants, and is trying to restrict the borrowing. The southern states are forced in to austerity measures

Want to borrow my glasses? How much do you need to convince you that the Germans are still hell bent on European domination one way or t'other?

[Lord Kangana]

So you're advocating handouts now hoboh? Isn't that a little at odds with your current position?

For example, would you be happy if the UK gave loads of money away to the southern states of Europe?

But you still haven't answered the question, what's so bad about about having a strong manufacturing base (based on a hi-tech product) that simultaneously has a strong export market? Or are you trying to suggest that everyone is forced to buy BMWs in Britain?

[Hoboh]

So you're advocating handouts now hoboh? Isn't that a little at odds with your current position?

For example, would you be happy if the UK gave loads of money away to the southern states of Europe?

But you still haven't answered the question, what's so bad about about having a strong manufacturing base (based on a hi-tech product) that simultaneously has a strong export market? Or are you trying to suggest that everyone is forced to buy BMWs in Britain?

Nothing wrong with that but when you are members of "a club" and wish to prolong the life style and ecconomy of your country, you invest in your partners. Seems to me that the problem is not "the banks" soley but countrys like Germany not circulating cash, in effect they are taking a gamble and playing hard faced poker that the EU does not start to fall apart and trade barriers can then be placed on their exports. Most countrys are driven by fear of the what ifs even us to a degree but I suspect that although overtly not many support our sceptisum on Europe in private they may jump on board if we took the lead, Germany is building great resentment across many European states right now and any collapse of the current set up would be to their detriment in terms of possible exports and thus to their life style. Its poker man on a huge scale and someone has to call them out! We too could have the technology and a decent paid workforce but for the disaster of socialism and the bloody unions of the 60's and 70's they have ruined everything from education through to jobs with the head in the sand outlook they had, not all of them were bad don't get me wrong enterprises like Concorde and the Harriers were outstanding but they let so much go with short term thinking.

[Lord Kangana]

My gast is well and truly flabbered.

We received something like 3X the money off the Americans after the war. And still The Germans did better, with a completely shattered country. And no-one remarks on it.

They then had to absorb the impoverished East. And I remember my (insanely wealthy, what with her father being the director of a large, German, manufacturing company) German Exchange Partner's family at the time being incredibly resentful of this. Yet they remained a more successful country by economic indicators.

They produce high quality export goods, for which they are rewarded in a system that The Right ascribes to, revels in, and believes in.

Yet all this isn't enough.

On the point of 60's and 70's socialism, did you know hoboh (and I'm guessing you don't, because people don't want to hear this) that the Callaghan Government of the the late 70's has a better economic record than the the first Thatcher Government?

Anyway, I'm watching Andrew Neill now, so I'll speak to you tomorrow.

But you're very wrong. So ner.

[Hoboh]

My gast is well and truly flabbered.

We received something like 3X the money off the Americans after the war. And still The Germans did better, with a completely shattered country. And no-one remarks on it.

They then had to absorb the impoverished East. And I remember my (insanely wealthy, what with her father being the director of a large, German, manufacturing company) German Exchange Partner's family at the time being incredibly resentful of this. Yet they remained a more successful country by economic indicators.

They produce high quality export goods, for which they are rewarded in a system that The Right ascribes to, revels in, and believes in.

Yet all this isn't enough.

On the point of 60's and 70's socialism, did you know hoboh (and I'm guessing you don't, because people don't want to hear this) that the Callaghan Government of the the late 70's has a better economic record than the the first Thatcher Government?

Anyway, I'm watching Andrew Neill now, so I'll speak to you tomorrow.

But you're very wrong. So ner.

Greece must privatise assets on a scale similar to the sell-off of East German companies at the fall of the Berlin Wall to rebuild its finances, the chairman of the Eurogroup of finance ministers said on Sunday.
These included setting up a privatisation agency at the insistence of the European Union and the IMF.


"For the forthcoming wave of privatisations they will need, for example, a solution based on a model of Germany's "Treuhand agency", said Mr Juncker, referring to the body that sold off 14,000 East German firms in 1990-94.Athens has agreed this year to shed €5bn of state assets, including airports, utilities, banks and the post office, towards a total €50bn.

Once the world's biggest holding company, Treuhand was supposed to generate a profit, but closed its books after a four-year fire sale with huge debts and having put 2.5 million Germans out of work.

Wrong am I?

[Prufrock]

So it's Germany, paying for everybody again, and they're the bad guys?

Your shit makes them look like saints Hoboh. Go look up who actually bought all the American sub-prime debt though, and you might have some evidence that works for your point, instead of dead against it!

[thebish]

so - splendid isolation it is...

how have we managed to become so utterly isolated?? we are not the only euro-sceptic nation in Europe - not by a loooooooooong chalk.

so why did we find no allies? why was Hague not on a plane all week garnering support, putting our case? it looks like even Hungary, Sweden and the Czech Republic want to join in...

Cameron will get a red carpet from his back-benchers - but as far as our European influence is concerned, I suspect a chill wind will blow for many years to come...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

so - splendid isolation it is...

how have we managed to become so utterly isolated?? we are not the only euro-sceptic nation in Europe - not by a loooooooooong chalk.

so why did we find no allies? why was Hague not on a plane all week garnering support, putting our case? it looks like even Hungary, Sweden and the Czech Republic want to join in...

Cameron will get a red carpet from his back-benchers - but as far as our European influence is concerned, I suspect a chill wind will blow for many years to come...

I am not really exercised by what others do and their incentives for doing it.

As far as I can see, Cameron couldn't and shouldn't have signed up to what was on the table, even ignoring the problems he has in his own party (and yes, the party is increasingly showing its bonkers tendencies on its back benches here).

Do you disagree?

(Top marks for another empty metaphor, by the way! )

[thebish]

so - splendid isolation it is...

how have we managed to become so utterly isolated?? we are not the only euro-sceptic nation in Europe - not by a loooooooooong chalk.

so why did we find no allies? why was Hague not on a plane all week garnering support, putting our case? it looks like even Hungary, Sweden and the Czech Republic want to join in...

Cameron will get a red carpet from his back-benchers - but as far as our European influence is concerned, I suspect a chill wind will blow for many years to come...

I am not really exercised by what others do and their incentives for doing it.

As far as I can see, Cameron couldn't and shouldn't have signed up to what was on the table, even ignoring the problems he has in his own party (and yes, the party is increasingly showing its bonkers tendencies on its back benches here).

Do you disagree?

(Top marks for another empty metaphor, by the way! )

I'm still waiting for you to work out the figures for the categories I comprehensively laid out - that would fill the metaphors - but you stubbornly refuse to do so!!

as for should/shouldn't - my answer would be that I wouldn't have started from here. I'm sure we will be sold the idea that the "thing" cameron rejected was the only possible outcome - but I'm not sure it was - not if proper negotiations had been entered into rather than a campaign if shrill sideline-posturing...

[Lord Kangana]

That c*nt Nick Farage still managed to find something to whinge about, anyway. He's a walking empty metaphor.

Only time will tell on this one. I'm cautiously pessimistic. <insert platitudes regarding two-tier systems and the loss of economic and political influence and control here>

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

so - splendid isolation it is...

how have we managed to become so utterly isolated?? we are not the only euro-sceptic nation in Europe - not by a loooooooooong chalk.

so why did we find no allies? why was Hague not on a plane all week garnering support, putting our case? it looks like even Hungary, Sweden and the Czech Republic want to join in...

Cameron will get a red carpet from his back-benchers - but as far as our European influence is concerned, I suspect a chill wind will blow for many years to come...

I am not really exercised by what others do and their incentives for doing it.

As far as I can see, Cameron couldn't and shouldn't have signed up to what was on the table, even ignoring the problems he has in his own party (and yes, the party is increasingly showing its bonkers tendencies on its back benches here).

Do you disagree?

(Top marks for another empty metaphor, by the way! )

I'm still waiting for you to work out the figures for the categories I comprehensively laid out - that would fill the metaphors - but you stubbornly refuse to do so!!

as for should/shouldn't - my answer would be that I wouldn't have started from here. I'm sure we will be sold the idea that the "thing" cameron rejected was the only possible outcome - but I'm not sure it was - not if proper negotiations had been entered into rather than a campaign if shrill sideline-posturing...

I told you - I'd love to have those figures too, but I'm pleased we have some agreement on the question of whether or not they'd be useful or, even, crucial!

I hope you don't think this is sophistry, but I suppose the 'precision' I am calling for is some precise thinking about the sort of issues these things should be decided on.

Even if I accepted your characterisation of how Cameron has conducted himself (I don't) I'd still be interested to know whether you think signing up to that deal this week was in our best interests.

The whole thing is a sham anyway - they're "saving the cancer and not the patient". If we are to be isolated, we may as well be isolated as the ones who didn't get on the Titanic just before it sailed.

How's that for a couple of metaphors?!

[Lord Kangana]

We've been relegated to The Europa League from The Champion League is my favourite doing the rounds at the moment.

The only caution I'd advise for a man of your political persuasion mummy, is that as this issue rumbles on, it my split the Coalition, or indeed the party. I heard (an unverified) snippet on the radio that Cameron has been strongly urging (political speak for slapping down?) maverick back benchers who will use this as an opportunity to crow about leaving Europe, to shut up.

I still maintain that he had no choice in these negotiations, because the City of London is now more powerful than any government this country could elect. That is a very dangerous position to be in. Especially if one day they get bored of us.

[Prufrock]

We've been relegated to The Europa League from The Champion League is my favourite doing the rounds at the moment.

The only caution I'd advise for a man of your political persuasion mummy, is that as this issue rumbles on, it my split the Coalition, or indeed the party. I heard (an unverified) snippet on the radio that Cameron has been strongly urging (political speak for slapping down?) maverick back benchers who will use this as an opportunity to crow about leaving Europe, to shut up.

I still maintain that he had no choice in these negotiations, because the City of London is now more powerful than any government this country could elect. That is a very dangerous position to be in. Especially if one day they get bored of us.

And form a breakaway Super League ?

[Lord Kangana]

Who would we sell the rights to though.

[Prufrock]

Presumably, on credit to people who'll never be able to pay it back?

[Lord Kangana]

Cool, and then we could bet against them without telling them for even more cash?