Today I'm angry about.....

[CrazyHorse]

I deliberately re-wrote that last sentence to make it try to seem less like I meant you directly. I know nowt about you Hoss, you could be an underpaid black woman for all I know! It is however the usual rationale behind the argument that 'women have never had it so good' which comes when people start complaining about all the perks that women get that men don't.
I know you didn't specifically mean me, my sarky tongue-in-cheekness was just a precursor to shoehorning the pru-bingo jibe in.

Women do sometimes use it to get their inequality overturned, but it involves kicking up a stink, forcing the company to complete an equality survey and knowing full-well, despite any law to the contrary, that it will be used against you.
If that's true, it really is their own fault. Either put up with the lower wages or do something about it. The law is quite clear; it's illegal to pay a woman less for the same job.

The point I 'glossed over' seems fairly easy to counter. They aren't paid less for a laugh, the mentality is often that women genuinely aren't as good as men, won't be working as hard, often even the well-meaning a working man is more likely to be the only bread winner so they deserve more, so despite in reality doing the same job, they aren't paid as much. That they aren't viewed to have the seniority, the gravitas, the ability, is why folk don't employ nought but women.
See all of that means nothing if an employer can save thousands by giving the job for someone who is (for want of a better phrase) prepared to do it for less money.

I'm not sure how the uncontroversial point that women get paid less than men, which is indisputable, often for the same work, difficult to find conclusive evidence but what there is points to there being an, admittedly smaller than it used to be, gap, and not being given the same opportunity at the top level, again indisputable fact, is somehow an 'unwinnable position'?
I genuinely don't believe it happens often, other than a few isolated cases. Like I say, the law is quite clear on this. There's a reason you can't find any real evidence to substantiate your claim.

And what are these perks, maternity leave aside, that women get that men don't?
I meant unofficial perks; for example no questions asked sick days five days every month. Time off at the drop of a hat cos one of the kids is sick, that sort of thing.

Bottom line is, I think this is a fallacy. A hark back to the days when women genuinely were treated differently. But now, in 2011 with 40 odd years of equality protection behind them it wouldn't be allowed to go on. Women as a whole earn less than men, that's a fact. But like for like jobs I'm not having it.

[thebish]

my missus does the same job as me - she gets paid exactly the same as me - to the penny. If she conducts a funeral for the local funeral directors - they pay her exactly the same as the would me - to the penny... - anecdotal evidence....

[BWFC_Insane]

Have to say, I've not come across women being paid less in identical jobs to men.

Am sure it probably happens, but from my own anecdotal evidence I suspect now its very rare indeed.

The bigger issue is that often women aren't given the same chance for certiain jobs as men are.

This cuts both ways though as CH points out, women get certain benefits that men on the whole (not exclusively everywhere) aren't receiving. The obvious and classic one being "Max has just been sick I need to go and get him and have the day off as I can't get childcare"....whilst both a man and woman could ask, it tends to be women who do in these situations and as an employer you often have little choice.

[Gooner Girl]

Women get to fvck the boss if they like... They get shit loads of perks here, for doing that!

Thats assuming they have a male boss? If its a female boss then do blokes get the same 'perk'?

As Prufrock said, given we have to give birth to the little darlings its only fair we get some time off to recover. Next time you give birth Bish you can take as much time off as you like

Though - i know Mr GG thinks he has it was easier at work then i do at home with the twins all day and some women are gagging to get back to work...

[thebish]

Women get to fvck the boss if they like... They get shit loads of perks here, for doing that!

Thats assuming they have a male boss? If its a female boss then do blokes get the same 'perk'?

As Prufrock said, given we have to give birth to the little darlings its only fair we get some time off to recover. Next time you give birth Bish you can take as much time off as you like

Though - i know Mr GG thinks he has it was easier at work then i do at home with the twins all day and some women are gagging to get back to work...

I know you're half-joking - but - seriously - you gain FAR MORE in getting the chance to see your kids grow and develop and take their first steps and hear them say their first words and all of those iconic moments over those first years than you gain by commuting to work every day and missing them all. men don't even get the months of leave that you get to do that in the very early stages...

[Gooner Girl]

Women get to fvck the boss if they like... They get shit loads of perks here, for doing that!

Thats assuming they have a male boss? If its a female boss then do blokes get the same 'perk'?

As Prufrock said, given we have to give birth to the little darlings its only fair we get some time off to recover. Next time you give birth Bish you can take as much time off as you like

Though - i know Mr GG thinks he has it was easier at work then i do at home with the twins all day and some women are gagging to get back to work...

I know you're half-joking - but - seriously - you gain FAR MORE in getting the chance to see your kids grow and develop and take their first steps and hear them say their first words and all of those iconic moments over those first years than you gain by commuting to work every day and missing them all. men don't even get the months of leave that you get to do that in the very early stages...

Oh don't get me wrong, i'd far rather be at home with the twins then working. The 2 afternoons i do do at work i'd rather not do if i didn't have to. Might have been playing devils advocate a bit here...

Its hard work with the twins, especially when they are both grizzly, poorly, teething etc but i get to see my friends and chat to them every day, browse fb and TW etc when the babies are asleep (errr, i mean, do housework...) and as you say, most importantly, i do get to see them grow up and develop and this time is short and fleeting, i'd hate to miss it. I'm no career woman, despite being a bit of a feminist, i am more then happy to be at home with the kids - but you can't assume every woman feels the same as me about maternity leave cos they don't, plenty of women go back to work for more reasons then just needing the money. They don't see mat leave as a perk. Anyway, it only lasts 9 months and isn't paid very well.

So according to various reports if a 'mum' was paid a proper salary equivalant to the 'work' they do i'd be on £37,000 a year which is twice what i was earning when i did work full time

[TANGODANCER]

We are, of course, assuming that all the people discussed in all this are all level-headed, honest citizens of the same mind-set who wouldn't dream of cheating the system or upsetting any apple carts? Also assuming they fit the category of being all as good at their jobs and do them as concientiously as the next man/woman and none have worse attendance, lates, sick days more or less than the rest aren't we? I mean, men generally don't tend to get all those migraines, heavy colds, kids not so good, problems at schools that need immediate attention, oh, and suffer from bad P.M.T as the ladies. Normally, that is, of course.

Then of course there's the one about daring to question a woman's opinion without it leading to tantrums and tears and having to offer apologies when really you feel like choking them because you know your point is right? And we talk of generalising and equality? Believe me, all these things happen and make employers despair. An ex boss once said to me, "For fxcks sake, get a lad in or a woman over fifty and train them to be office secretary. I'm sick to the teeth of getting a decent girl in and then she's pregnant. I'm trying to run a business not a fxcking charity! "

Oh, but you can't do that, that's discrimination.

In smaller businesses these sort of things can cause absolute havoc. I know, I've been there. The whole point is that there's much more involved than plain equality in anything. Would it were all so simple. Ask any employer.

[Gooner Girl]

We are, of course, assuming that all the people discussed in all this are all level-headed, honest citizens of the same mind-set who wouldn't dream of cheating the system or upsetting any apple carts? Also assuming they fit the category of being all as good at their jobs and do them as concientiously as the next man/woman and none have worse attendance, lates, sick days more or less than the rest aren't we? I mean, men generally don't tend to get all those migraines, heavy colds, kids not so good, problems at schools that need immediate attention, oh, and suffer from bad P.M.T as the ladies. Normally, that is, of course.

Then of course there's the one about daring to question a woman's opinion without it leading to tantrums and tears and having to offer apologies when really you feel like choking them because you know your point is right? And we talk of generalising and equality? Believe me, all these things happen and make employers despair. An ex boss once said to me, "For fxcks sake, get a lad in or a woman over fifty and train them to be office secretary. I'm sick to the teeth of getting a decent girl in and then she's pregnant. I'm trying to run a business not a fxcking charity! "

Oh, but you can't do that, that's discrimination.

In smaller businesses these sort of things can cause absolute havoc. I know, I've been there. The whole point is that there's much more involved than plain equality in anything. Would it were all so simple. Ask any employer.

Errr, i think you'll find that most men generally make FAR bigger fusses over colds, migraines etc then women do - its called 'man flu' for a reason, plus someone has to sort the kids illnesses etc out if you blokes are too much of a lazy arse to do it then it generally falls to the woman. Is that their fault?

How dare you suggest that women have 'tantrums and tears' when they have their opinions questioned? Thats blatant sexism and assumptions Tango. I thought better of you.

And having been on the recieving end of questions hinting round the prospect of whether i am likely to have kids soon in a job interview (totally illegal questions i might add) i am fairly sure i have been passed up for a job because of my age and sex.

[BWFC_Insane]

The generalisations probably aren't helpful on either side...

I do believe it is a fact that women have on average considerably worse sickness records than men do in terms of days worked per year...certainly thats the case at our place and am sure our HR Director once told me that it was reflective of the national trend...

[Gooner Girl]

The generalisations probably aren't helpful on either side...

I do believe it is a fact that women have on average considerably worse sickness records than men do in terms of days worked per year...certainly thats the case at our place and am sure our HR Director once told me that it was reflective of the national trend...

I believe you re the stats but until you blokes have suffered very bad period pain you can't moan at us about taking time off for it (not that you were personally, BWFCi i realise, just pointing out that some months it can make getting out of bed a real effort!)

[BWFC_Insane]

The generalisations probably aren't helpful on either side...

I do believe it is a fact that women have on average considerably worse sickness records than men do in terms of days worked per year...certainly thats the case at our place and am sure our HR Director once told me that it was reflective of the national trend...

I believe you re the stats but until you blokes have suffered very bad period pain you can't moan at us about taking time off for it (not that you were personally, BWFCi i realise, just pointing out that some months it can make getting out of bed a real effort!)

I'm not doubting it. As an employer I wouldn't accept a woman continually ringing in with that, anymore than I would a man doing the same with a migraine or whatever...

I know some do accept it though because its easier to I guess...and whilst I've no doubt its unpleasant, its not a catch all, men suffer from equally unpleasant things as well, and I suspect its women who do take 5-6 sick days a year every year because of it, that cause the overreaction you see from the other side.

[Bruce Rioja]

We are, of course, assuming that all the people discussed in all this are all level-headed, honest citizens of the same mind-set who wouldn't dream of cheating the system or upsetting any apple carts? Also assuming they fit the category of being all as good at their jobs and do them as concientiously as the next man/woman and none have worse attendance, lates, sick days more or less than the rest aren't we? I mean, men generally don't tend to get all those migraines, heavy colds, kids not so good, problems at schools that need immediate attention, oh, and suffer from bad P.M.T as the ladies. Normally, that is, of course.

Then of course there's the one about daring to question a woman's opinion without it leading to tantrums and tears and having to offer apologies when really you feel like choking them because you know your point is right? And we talk of generalising and equality? Believe me, all these things happen and make employers despair. An ex boss once said to me, "For fxcks sake, get a lad in or a woman over fifty and train them to be office secretary. I'm sick to the teeth of getting a decent girl in and then she's pregnant. I'm trying to run a business not a fxcking charity! "

Oh, but you can't do that, that's discrimination.

In smaller businesses these sort of things can cause absolute havoc. I know, I've been there. The whole point is that there's much more involved than plain equality in anything. Would it were all so simple. Ask any employer.

Deary me - we're you working on inventing the fecking wheel at the time???

[thebish]

So according to various reports if a 'mum' was paid a proper salary equivalant to the 'work' they do i'd be on £37,000 a year which is twice what i was earning when i did work full time

I've never bought the idea that people should be paid to bring up their own kids. I was never paid any money for the hours I put in bringing mine up and I would not have wanted to have been paid.

[TANGODANCER]

How dare you suggest that women have 'tantrums and tears' when they have their opinions questioned? Thats blatant sexism and assumptions Tango. I thought better of you.

My whole point was that it isn't a simple issue making legislation on job equality GG. If you want an example of the above not being just assumption, then here's one:

My ex boss on Site Services was a brilliant hard-working chap. Because he was constanly on the go and not computer au-fait, I made a simple Excel programme for his daily readings on various items. He loved it, but time was his enemy, so I offered to do it for him. He replied I had enough to do and he'd give it to the receptionist as she had plenty time to do it. We were networked, and after a couple of days it all started to go wrong. I went to see her and re-explained the (very simple) system again. It still went wrong and I had to go and tell her I couldn't understand why. She was operating it wrongly, plain and simple and I told her so. (Bear in mind she was supposedly very efficient on computer work). Next news I'm summoned to the Finance director's office and asked why I'd had xxxxxxxx in floods of tears and been shouting at her ( a blatant lie as I never raised my voice and when I left her she was fine.) Since he was a computer whizz I got him to bring the programme up and showed him just how simple it was. He hummed and hawed so much I suggested I just did it myself instead of bothering her. I got the bollocking, took the job over and she made a point of pointedly ignoring me for a week and telling her sad little story all around the office.

Not sexism or assumption, just the truth. A one-off, granted, but it does happen and strengthens the point that generalising doesn't always work.

[thebish]

Research shows the average man takes a total of 140 days off sick during their career, while women phone in sick 189 times

[Bruce Rioja]

Research shows the average man takes a total of 140 days off sick during their career, while women phone in sick 189 times

Actually physically phone-in sick 189 times or take an average of 189 sick days?

[Gooner Girl]

So according to various reports if a 'mum' was paid a proper salary equivalant to the 'work' they do i'd be on £37,000 a year which is twice what i was earning when i did work full time

I've never bought the idea that people should be paid to bring up their own kids. I was never paid any money for the hours I put in bringing mine up and I would not have wanted to have been paid.

Calm down Bishy, I was just making the point that being a stay at home mum is not actually an easy option, wasn't suggesting we get paid.

[Gooner Girl]

As you say Tango, yours was a one off experience so because it was, you shouldnt generalise

[thebish]

So according to various reports if a 'mum' was paid a proper salary equivalant to the 'work' they do i'd be on £37,000 a year which is twice what i was earning when i did work full time

I've never bought the idea that people should be paid to bring up their own kids. I was never paid any money for the hours I put in bringing mine up and I would not have wanted to have been paid.

Calm down Bishy, I was just making the point that being a stay at home mum is not actually an easy option, wasn't suggesting we get paid.

it is remarkably often suggested though!! and whilst I haven't had twins - I have had three kids under 5 all at the same time - and I still maintain that it is nowhere near as big a job as women constantly claim it is! If the missus hadn't bagged doing it - I would have swapped paid work for doing that ANY day of the week.

[Gooner Girl]

You had an au pair so you could both work!