The Great Art Debate

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Oh I see, Bruce was just wondering how there could be four versions...

Shame it's being auctioned in Sotheby's in NY and not London, so I can't go and indulge my voyeurism again.

[TANGODANCER]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

But yesterday managed to get to the Picasso and Britain exhibition at Tate Britain. Here the influence of Picasso on six major British artists is examined, with work by them and Picasso collected and displayed in alternate rooms.

This is very, very good. The Henry Moore especially is stunning.

There is a photographic reproduction of Guernica (half size, so very big) which goes with two of Sutherland's depictions of the Crucifixion, which are outstanding. There are also some preliminary studies of Guernica that are moving - the opportunity to see the artist working towards what will become the most famous painting of the 20th Century.

Some of the Picasso is humdrum, it's true, but some is wonderful. Some of the British art is dull and uninspired, but some, the Moore, the Francis Bacon especially, is exceptional.

The exhibition is too expensive (£15) but I spent three hours there - was just about to leave and went back to the Moore for a second taste - so a bargain £5 an hour.

Unfortunately, £15 is the standard these days... I wish I had signed up to the Art Fund at the start of the year, as I would definitely have made that outlay back in 50% discounts.

Hoping to get to Picasso myself on Monday.

[William the White]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

80 million dollars is the estimate...

[Bruce Rioja]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

[thebish]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

because somehow he has managed to connect with a universal feeling of terror/abandonment in a stop-what-you-are-doing-and-pause-to-contemplate-this way... through his art he has spoken to millions and expressed something many find inexpressible..

you saying it is "badly drawn" presupposes an opinion that realism indicates "well drawn"... which is a subjective judgement, and, in the end, a circular argument...

that's my view, anyway...

[William the White]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

Or perhaps madness, psychosis, extreme alienation. Is it an inner scream? The figure is in a world that makes no literal sense, alone, on a bridge, the sky screaming red, the colour of blood, of anger, of warning, hazy, indistinct figures, neither man nor woman... The idea that the figure is badly drawn is ludicrous.

[thebish]

here's the crowd at the reebok at the Fulham game...

[Bruce Rioja]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

Or perhaps madness, psychosis, extreme alienation. Is it an inner scream? The figure is in a world that makes no literal sense, alone, on a bridge, the sky screaming red, the colour of blood, of anger, of warning, hazy, indistinct figures, neither man nor woman... The idea that the figure is badly drawn is ludicrous.

Indeed. Worded so much better than I. As thebish attests, it really does have that stop-you-in-your-tracks, or if you prefer, an 'ooof' quality to it. Can't agree with Tango at all on this one.

[thebish]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

Or perhaps madness, psychosis, extreme alienation. Is it an inner scream? The figure is in a world that makes no literal sense, alone, on a bridge, the sky screaming red, the colour of blood, of anger, of warning, hazy, indistinct figures, neither man nor woman... The idea that the figure is badly drawn is ludicrous.

I have always liked the idea that there are two other figures on the bridge - and they appear NOT to be screaming (inwardly or outwardly) - which has always touched the idea (for me) that in any ordinary street filled with ordinary people going about their ordinary business - SOMEONE will be screaming on the inside...

this doesn't seem to be a terrible external event (it's not a monster out of view) - otherwise they'd all be screaming - it is inner terror - hidden from the world around it - and, as such, isolating and doubly terrifying

[TANGODANCER]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

I can only be truthful answering that. If I walked past it, didn't know anything about it, that it is regarded as great art and is worth eighty million dolars on the art market, I probably wouldn't give it a second look. Knowing what it is still only makes me shake my head in disbelief and I certainly wouldn't want it hanging on my wall. As I said, I can only be truthful but my view won't change anything. Mind you, if Munch had been a Bolton supporter..

[William the White]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

I can only be truthful answering that. If I walked past it, didn't know anything about it, that it is regarded as great art and is worth eighty million dolars on the art market, I probably wouldn't give it a second look. Knowing what it is still only makes me shake my head in disbelief and I certainly wouldn't want it hanging on my wall. As I said, I can only be truthful but my view won't change anything. Mind you, if Munch had been a Bolton supporter..

It'd go well with the pre-Raphaelite sugar syrup and the Vettriano masterpieces...

[thebish]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

I can only be truthful answering that. If I walked past it, didn't know anything about it, that it is regarded as great art and is worth eighty million dolars on the art market, I probably wouldn't give it a second look. Knowing what it is still only makes me shake my head in disbelief and I certainly wouldn't want it hanging on my wall. As I said, I can only be truthful but my view won't change anything. Mind you, if Munch had been a Bolton supporter..

I know it won't change anything - but are you still suggesting that part of the definition of "great art" depends on whether you'd hang it on your wall (presumably at home)?

[Bruce Rioja]

Here's where I'm about to upset somebody: Why is Munch's Scream great art? A badly drawn figure, on a bridge, hands on ears and mouth wide open (indicating , I suppose, shutting it all out and screaming in protest?) and yet it'll probably sell for millions. So, why is it great art?

You don't think that it encapsulates a persons horror/terror then, Tango? I do. I think it's a masterpiece.

I can only be truthful answering that. If I walked past it, didn't know anything about it, that it is regarded as great art and is worth eighty million dolars on the art market, I probably wouldn't give it a second look. Knowing what it is still only makes me shake my head in disbelief and I certainly wouldn't want it hanging on my wall. As I said, I can only be truthful but my view won't change anything. Mind you, if Munch had been a Bolton supporter..

Its value though is neither here nor there though, Tango. It really doesn't stop you and make you think? Fair do's. It does, me! Unto each his own and whatnot.

[TANGODANCER]

wink:

I know it won't change anything - but are you still suggesting that part of the definition of "great art" depends on whether you'd hang it on your wall (presumably at home)?

Indeed no. Can't recall I ever stated that great art needed that. Although, if it didn't hang on somebody's nobody would ever sell anything.

I can recall saying that great art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I'll stick with that.

[thebish]

wink:

I know it won't change anything - but are you still suggesting that part of the definition of "great art" depends on whether you'd hang it on your wall (presumably at home)?

Indeed no. Can't recall I ever stated that great art needed that. Although, if it didn't hang on somebody's nobody would ever sell anything.

I can recall saying that great art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I'll stick with that.

oh - ok! It's just that you often say "I wouldn't hang it on my wall" as if it were somehow important in the question of whether it is great art!!

I'm not sure I'd hang it on my wall either!!

[TANGODANCER]

It'd go well with the pre-Raphaelite sugar syrup and the Vettriano masterpieces...

Neither of which hang on my walls. One that does,and has done for many years, may actually appeal to you. It isn't a painting but a colour print of a photograph. ( Excuse my own photography ). It depicts Argentina, a land, like Spain, like Cuba, of sunshine but also may depressed regions. The crumbling walls are daubed with graffiti (presumably protest ) and yet the natives dance the tango in the street regardless. I rather loved the concept because the tango can be sad and haunting and also gay and celebratory. So maybe that's what the photographer saw. I actually saw it as art with a message of hope. Smiling in the face of adversity, if you will. Quien sabe.

[Bruce Rioja]

Saw this - fell in love with - bought last week. Needs framing and I've I've no idea where to put it..........

[William the White]

It'd go well with the pre-Raphaelite sugar syrup and the Vettriano masterpieces...

Neither of which hang on my walls. One that does,and has done for many years, may actually appeal to you. It isn't a painting but a colour print of a photograph. ( Excuse my own photography ). It depicts Argentina, a land, like Spain, like Cuba, of sunshine but also may depressed regions. The crumbling walls are daubed with graffiti (presumably protest ) and yet the natives dance the tango in the street regardless. I rather loved the concept because the tango can be sad and haunting and also gay and celebratory. So maybe that's what the photographer saw. I actually saw it as art with a message of hope. Smiling in the face of adversity, if you will. Quien sabe.

You know, Tango, I want to like that much more than I do. And I would if I felt there was any spontaneity there. The idea that you might dance with joy in the crumbling slums makes me grin very widely - at its truth and its spirit... But this looks posed and wooden to me...

I may be wrong, it may be a spontaneous snap. But it doesn't look like it.

I absolutely share your sentiments though... art that affirms the human spirit is worthwhile art...

[TANGODANCER]

You know, Tango, I want to like that much more than I do. And I would if I felt there was any spontaneity there. The idea that you might dance with joy in the crumbling slums makes me grin very widely - at its truth and its spirit... But this looks posed and wooden to me...
I may be wrong, it may be a spontaneous snap. But it doesn't look like it.
I absolutely share your sentiments though... art that affirms the human spirit is worthwhile art...[/quote]

It's possible the photographer took more than one pic to get over the image, I really have no idea. But surely, it's what we see as the result that matters? That and letting the viewers see it as they will? When I first saw it it made me smile. I found it in a magazine somewhere, if I remember, and blew it up and framed it. The tango contains many such moves and beyond that I never went. It's hung facing me as I come down stairs so I see it several times a day, every day, and never tire of it. I had a Merchant Navy mate (now sadly passed on) who told me of life in Argentina. He was single and when in port the sailors hired local women for a week. When thy took him home he couldn't believe that such beautiful women lived amongst such utter poverty and degredation. I've always remembered that, so the picture made some sense to me. It has such content; sunlight and shade, rythmn and romance and all against the stark reality that is a major part of it all. Ah....I'm getting carried away..