The Politics Thread

[Prufrock]

By the way Pru - having time to watch 4oD repeats on a weekday morning makes you a bastard...

But, but, I'm ill! I didn't spend last night watching football in German and then Italian bars. I was suffering with a quiet dignified, silence reading Facebook.

[Hoboh]

By the way Pru - having time to watch 4oD repeats on a weekday morning makes you a bastard...

But, but, I'm ill! I didn't spend last night watching football in German and then Italian bars. I was suffering with a quiet dignified, silence reading Facebook.

I feel your pain

[Bruce Rioja]

I was suffering with a quiet dignified, silence reading Facebook.

I feel your pain

I doubt it. Prufrock has 459 friends

[Lord Kangana]

Slag.

[as]

Gideon is a c*nt.

One who has spent his entire life rolling around in money.

Die of aids - tory c*nt.

[a1]

still better at it than gordon.

[BWFC_Insane]

still better at it than gordon.

Clearly not. Clearly he's as bad as it gets!

Right wing economics failing yet again!

[thebish]

still better at it than gordon.

Clearly not. Clearly he's as bad as it gets!

Right wing economics failing yet again!

don't be redicoulose! it is the wet weather and the royal jubilee that are to blame!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

And here I was thinking the fault lies with the government for not borrowing more to spend on construction...

[Lord Kangana]

I'm not reproducing the long rambling post that I just lost about cash-in-hand jobs....but out of interest mummy, whats your take on a Tory MP attacking what would ostensibly be a group of small business people who (one would assume) to be in the main Tory voters (indeed, probably Thatcherite in their leanings)?

And beyond the obvious, such as legality, what's the board's moral position on this? I'm fascinated that I found myself jumping to the defence of the practice in my head, in that I'd rather the money sloshed around the economy in some form, than discourage people from spending. I also found myself agrreeing, that after tha last few years fiascos re the banks and offshore accounts, tax avoidance, non doms etc etc ad infinitum, that its merely the poor man's version of these.

Any thoughts?

[Worthy4England]

still better at it than gordon.

Clearly not. Clearly he's as bad as it gets!

Right wing economics failing yet again!

don't be redicoulose! it is the wet weather and the royal jubilee that are to blame!

What the government's manifesto said...

The absence of a credible plan to deal with our record budget deficit, the largest of any major economy, is creating uncertainty over Britain’s credit rating and interest rates. This instability undermines confidence and jeopardises investment. It could tip Britain back into recession.

So we keep getting warned about CR downgrade, and we're in recession.

Does this therefore indicate the "absence of a credible plan"

I think we should be told.

[thebish]

and govt spending continues to rise...

[Worthy4England]

I'm not reproducing the long rambling post that I just lost about cash-in-hand jobs....but out of interest mummy, whats your take on a Tory MP attacking what would ostensibly be a group of small business people who (one would assume) to be in the main Tory voters (indeed, probably Thatcherite in their leanings)?

And beyond the obvious, such as legality, what's the board's moral position on this? I'm fascinated that I found myself jumping to the defence of the practice in my head, in that I'd rather the money sloshed around the economy in some form, than discourage people from spending. I also found myself agrreeing, that after tha last few years fiascos re the banks and offshore accounts, tax avoidance, non doms etc etc ad infinitum, that its merely the poor man's version of these.

Any thoughts?

They're both wrong and one is against the law. They all put the squeeze on those folk on PAYE, who by being easy targets get no leeway and the threat (and carrying out of) fines etc. if they don't comply with SA Tax deadlines and the like.

I don't object particularly to the tax I pay, I do object when other people don't pay, either through fiddling the system or by loopholing the system.

In the end, I pay more than my "fair share" by being honest - but probably lose some risk of getting found out.

I didn't have most of the cash in hand boys (and I pay cash in hand) as being Thatcherite.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'm not reproducing the long rambling post that I just lost about cash-in-hand jobs....but out of interest mummy, whats your take on a Tory MP attacking what would ostensibly be a group of small business people who (one would assume) to be in the main Tory voters (indeed, probably Thatcherite in their leanings)?

And beyond the obvious, such as legality, what's the board's moral position on this? I'm fascinated that I found myself jumping to the defence of the practice in my head, in that I'd rather the money sloshed around the economy in some form, than discourage people from spending. I also found myself agrreeing, that after tha last few years fiascos re the banks and offshore accounts, tax avoidance, non doms etc etc ad infinitum, that its merely the poor man's version of these.

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I have some thoughts.

As ever I'll start by saying that talk of morality is a meaningless rhetorical distraction that isn't worth expending any mental effort on.

So, is having a cash-in-hand work in the economy a good idea? Certainly your point about cash sloshing around the economy is relevant. I'd be interested in seeing someone qualified giving some thought to how much of that sort of activity simply wouldn't take place if it had to be placed on a more 'formal' basis.

However, the numbers I have seen seem to estimate that cash-in-hand job account for somewhere between 10-25% of the 'tax gap', i.e. the tax we don't collect but probably should, the bulk of the remaining 75-90% accounted for by corporate or wealthy individual tax avoidance.

So it's probably not a trivial or insignificant figure not worth bothering about.

But even if somebody could show me that the overall figure is no big deal in the scheme of things, I'd still be against it because of the roel it plays in forming the national mindset. Think about why countries like Italy and Greece are so screwed and it mainly comes down to their approach to taxes. Everyone just pays each other in cash or favours and the result is that everybody thinks that everybody else is avoiding tax and that only a mug would do things through official channels. Those systems are so rotten, that when somebody like Silvio Berlusconi is shown clearly to have avoided tax on an enormous scale, the vast majority of the populace does not hold it against him because paying tax is just not the Italian way.

For me, when we have people paying plumbers, childminders, cleaners, whatever, in cash, it is a step on the way to that unhelpful mediterranean mindset that permeates into bigger business dealings too.

There are other consequences. For legitimate businesses, the work results in an unfair competitive advantage for cash enterprises over legitimate businesses - again, this 'everyone else is at it' slippery slope. For cash-in-hand workers, the problems are often that they lack access to health and safety standards, cannot build-up rights to a state/access pension scheme and other benefits, suffer a constant fear of detection and risk of prosecution, lack legal protection relative to legitimate workers, and are unable to access loans for things like expanding their business. For customers, meanwhile, the negative consequences are often that they lack legal recourse to the law if a poor job is done and insurance cover and guarantees in relation to the work conducted.

That'll have to do for now.

[Wandering Willy]

Dear God. Where do we start. With these 2 gems I suppose:

For me, when we have people paying plumbers, childminders, cleaners, whatever, in cash, it is a step on the way to that unhelpful mediterranean mindset

cash-in-hand job account for somewhere between 10-25% of the 'tax gap', i.e. the tax we don't collect but probably should, the bulk of the remaining 75-90% accounted for by corporate or wealthy individual tax avoidance

I'm all right Jack.

[Worthy4England]

Dear God. Where do we start. With these 2 gems I suppose:

For me, when we have people paying plumbers, childminders, cleaners, whatever, in cash, it is a step on the way to that unhelpful mediterranean mindset

cash-in-hand job account for somewhere between 10-25% of the 'tax gap', i.e. the tax we don't collect but probably should, the bulk of the remaining 75-90% accounted for by corporate or wealthy individual tax avoidance

I'm all right Jack.

That's a reasonable view in "proportion terms", but if we put some numbers on it, the black economy (the amount not collected in tax that should have been) totalled £42bn in 2010 and estimated £64bn last year.

To me, it's all dodged tax and means I'm paying shitloads more than I should be doing. If the cash in hand mob were only 10% (so £6.4bn) then there's a penny off your tax (somewhere between 1 and 2%).

I would be delighted to get that money given back to me. As I would with all the tax dodging bastards at the top end too!

[Wandering Willy]

I don't know about your own circumstances but I suspect that you could survive an extra penny on your tax - after all you're doing it now. I suspect many of the cash in hand folk would struggle a lot more if taxed.

I'm not sure your paying "shitloads" more than you should but I believe the tax material tax "dodging" is done by the higher wage earners/companies.

[Lord Kangana]

Interestingly enough, there was a Greek economist a while back giving out a stark warning that many of the problems associated with their country were down to the avoidance of tax, and that those problems could easily be exported. That is, the avoidance of tax that is required to run a modern state.

I also note with interest that The Telegraph was reporting yesterday that kids are now being taught (in citizenship classes would it be?) that paying your fair and honest share of tax is the correct thing to do. That sounds suspiciously like moral compunction being used to achieve the required end to me.

I still feel, as one MP has already pointed out, that it would be nigh on impossible to police anyway, and further my own feeling is that if very tough and very public measures are not taken to deal with it at the top end, you will never get the aqueisence of the lower end. Indeed, they will continue to think the way they do unless some high profile heads roll (call it a modern day lynching if you will), whether that is either sensible or legal.

As adjunct to Willy's point, psychologists will point out that the wealthier you become, generally the more selfishness you display. That was also in The Telegraph.

[Worthy4England]

I don't know about your own circumstances but I suspect that you could survive an extra penny on your tax - after all you're doing it now. I suspect many of the cash in hand folk would struggle a lot more if taxed.

I'm not sure your paying "shitloads" more than you should but I believe the tax material tax "dodging" is done by the higher wage earners/companies.

My argument isn't that we should get this group or that group, it's that we should get ALL the tax dodging bastards. I think I'm paying shitloads more than I should - you're entitled to not being sure about that - but it's a fair old guess given you have no notion how much I pay (or actually whether I'm lying and dodge it all ). I would rather everyone paid as they were due. It won't happen, but that shouldn't mean we don't try. To suggest that it isn't material isn't correct IMO. £5.8bn (per year) on underaccounted tax declarations, £1.3bn on "ghost" workers, £1.8bn in people not declaring on second jobs - then you need to calculate how many of them can also claim benefits, because of their non-declarations. To say it's smaller than the amounts at the top end is correct. To say it's not material isn't.

The point is, they're not just taking it off me, they're taking off any poor fooker who earns more than £8,000 and pays all their tax. So they're often taking off people that earn possibly similar amounts or less than them.

My grumble isn't that I pay too much, it's that some folk at both ends don't pay what they should.

[thebish]

For me, when we have people paying plumbers, childminders, cleaners, whatever, in cash, it is a step on the way to that unhelpful mediterranean mindset that permeates into bigger business dealings too.

just a short practical question: how do you pay the window cleaner if not with cash?

seems to me that paying with cash is simply a red herring - it's the responsibility of the tradesman to declare income not the responsibility of the client to pay in such a way as makes it more or less possible to avoid tax - surely???