Millwall @ The Reebok

[SmokinFrazier]

And so it begins...

As much as I hate to say it he does have a point. The squad that Freedman inherited is likely to represent the best squad he will have at this club, on paper at least. He's doing scarcely better with them than Coyle did. I know some people here won't entertain criticism of the manager this early on but there are a few warning signs beginning to appear. It's also somewhat disconcerting that the criteria used judge Coyle is not being applied to Freedman at this stage. I do not buy the 'he needs to build his own squad' argument, a good manager should be able to work with what he's got plus one or two others. There's a very real danger that by allowing Freedman to dismantle the team it will be replaced by a posse of low fee, low wage journeymen.

Agreed.

A good manager can turn a team around in literally weeks, just by working on the basics, focusing on the strengths and removing the weaknesses. Look at Ipswich under McCarthy for an example of that.

People saying "Freedman should have time" or "he needs to build his own squad" are missing the point. Freedman's job is to get this team playing far better than they currently are, immediately. It's not a long term job and it doesn't need to be one either. We can, and should, have seen more progress than we have done.

Like you said, Freedman will never have a better squad than the one he's got now, unless he gets us promoted. He needs to get the most out of the team, and that isn't an impossible task like some are making it out to be.

Indeed. I don't want anyone to think I'm calling for Freedman's head at this early stage (BWFCI!) but I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and a lot of opinions turning 180 degrees. The simple fact is that with this squad what Coyle did was not good enough and what Freedman is doing is not good enough.

Yeah, there's a definite hypocrisy going on with some posters. A while back it was "Coyle is useless, we have a great squad who should be storming the league" and now it's "Freedman is a good manager but he has a load of overrated players who refuse to try". Nothing has changed between the performance of the players - they're still as talented as they ever were and they still try as hard as they did under Coyle.

For me, the problem is the tempo and intensity at Championship level. Our players certainly haven't adjusted to that but I absolutely disagree with the notion that they aren't talented enough. How many other teams in this league could willingly get rid of an international, proven player player to a good Spanish club, because he couldn't even make it into the team? The argument about a lack of quality or lack of depth falls flat on it's face immediately. This is the pretty much the same group of players who outplayed teams like Everton last year, and almost stayed up in the Premier League. Everyone we wanted to keep, we have, bar Reo Coker.

What Coyle and Freedman have both failed to do, is turn a good group of players into good Championship players. Wolves and Blackburn have had the same problem, although they've both lost more quality than we have with key players like Kightly, Jarvis and Hoilett leaving them. The issue is not the 'quality' of the players, it's making them adapt to the Championship.

That responsibility lies solely upon the manager and his coaching team. Both Coyle and Freedman should be criticised for not making the players adjust. That's their job and both have failed.

However, I'm not saying that Freedman should be sacked. I'm not his biggest fan right now but the results aren't so bad that I'm calling for his head. If he loses two or three in a row, many people will want him gone and similarly, if he wins three in a row, he'll be the Messiah.

We have a good squad, albeit we lack a proper goalscorer, and it's up to the manager to get the best out of them. If he can do that, I think we'll get to the play offs. If he can't, we'll rebuild and there won't be a return to the Premier League any time soon.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Yeah, there's a definite hypocrisy going on with some posters. A while back it was "Coyle is useless, we have a great squad who should be storming the league" and now it's "Freedman is a good manager but he has a load of overrated players who refuse to try". Nothing has changed between the performance of the players - they're still as talented as they ever were and they still try as hard as they did under Coyle.

I'm not sure hypocrisy is right. From my point of view we had a poorly performing team under Coyle, that Coyle had more than 2 years to assemble and coach to perform at Premiership level and his preferred style/method. At this he failed. Aside from relegation, we only managed about 3 or 4 games in this swashbuckling passing style that he supposedly had us playing. Freedman has come in and after a dozen or so games thing have either not improved overall, or have improved a little.

I would argue that this set of players is not as talented as we thought they were and Coyle told us. Whether Freedman is a good or bad manager is yet to be proved.

For me, the problem is the tempo and intensity at Championship level. Our players certainly haven't adjusted to that but I absolutely disagree with the notion that they aren't talented enough. How many other teams in this league could willingly get rid of an international, proven player player to a good Spanish club, because he couldn't even make it into the team? The argument about a lack of quality or lack of depth falls flat on it's face immediately. This is the pretty much the same group of players who outplayed teams like Everton last year, and almost stayed up in the Premier League. Everyone we wanted to keep, we have, bar Reo Coker.

What Coyle and Freedman have both failed to do, is turn a good group of players into good Championship players. Wolves and Blackburn have had the same problem, although they've both lost more quality than we have with key players like Kightly, Jarvis and Hoilett leaving them. The issue is not the 'quality' of the players, it's making them adapt to the Championship.

Bollocks. You're making out that Championship football is a different sport. It is football FFS. You either have the talent and desire to be good at it or not. There is some talent in the squad, but not as much as these billy big bollocks think they have. Talent aside the desire is seriously lacking. No one deserves to be called a professional footballer if they don't have the hunger and desire. If Freedman is to convince he is a good manager, he has to start motivating the shower of shite.

That responsibility lies solely upon the manager and his coaching team. Both Coyle and Freedman should be criticised for not making the players adjust. That's their job and both have failed.

However, I'm not saying that Freedman should be sacked. I'm not his biggest fan right now but the results aren't so bad that I'm calling for his head. If he loses two or three in a row, many people will want him gone and similarly, if he wins three in a row, he'll be the Messiah.

We have a good squad, albeit we lack a proper goalscorer, and it's up to the manager to get the best out of them. If he can do that, I think we'll get to the play offs. If he can't, we'll rebuild and there won't be a return to the Premier League any time soon.

Here is this talented squad we have:

Boggers - I argue is not Premiership quality. Probably at the right level now, might improve. Might not. Talent scale 6.
Lonergan - Dunno. Clangers and world class saves the other day seemingly. Haven't seen him play, so wont score him.
Mears - Championship player. Shit or ok depending on who you speak to. Talent Scale 6.
Ricketts - Ok Premiership player, should be good at this level. Talent Scale 7.
Riley - Who knows. Some promise. We'll have to see. Wont score him.
Wheater - Injured. Competent at Premiership level. Not the saviour some think he'll be. Talent score 7.
Knight - Had 3 or 4 decent games. Seems to be back to the half arsed, sorry excuse of a CB. Talent score 6.
Ream - Seems to have had a couple of decent games recently. Struggled last season. Been dire mostly. Talent score 6.
Mills - Championship player. Not impressed so far. Talent score 6.
Alonso - Not a left back. Seems to have some potential in midfield. Talent score 6.
Petrov - Is he still here? Has talent, rarely shows it. Should be an 8, but talent score 7.
Mavies - Has talent, inconsistent. Yet top really prove himself, but in right team/system could be good. Talent score 7.
Pratley - Rarely decent for us but scored lots at this level for Swansea. Talent score 6.
Spearing - Competent player. Talent score 7.
Andrews - Seems to be performing a bit better these days. Again, competent. Talent score 7.
Holden - Missed the little fella. Will he be as good? We know this guy can be very good. Talent score 8.
Eagles - Currently proving why he has never made it in the Premiership. Great on his day, shite the rest. Talent score 7.
CYL - Not back to his best. Proven to be good at Premiership level. Talent score 8.
Davies - A legend for us. Has been in decline and still useful to us. Not every match though. Hard to score. A slightly generous 7.
Ngog - This guy is a nightmare. In some ways great, others shite. Slightly generous score of 7.
Afobe - Send the guy back. Talent score 5.
Sordell - Too busy tweeting. Not impressed in the little he has played. Dunno whether to give 5 or 6.

I'm sure folk will argue with the scores, but my point in making them is based around what we have seen of the players in the last 2-3 seasons and their contribution to the team. In my mind these scores debunk the myth of a great squad. Sixes and sevens is mediocrity and aptly describes our last 2 years. We have a few players that *could* be good Premiership players. In reality we only have Holden and CYL that I could describe as being good Premiership players that could get into upper mid and higher teams. Both are coming back from injury and it remains to be seen if they can get back to their best. The rest either have a lot to prove before they can join Holden and CYL, or they are at best average, or declining in their autumn years.

This is not some super, great smashing squad. It is a mess. It is disjointed. It has no spirit. It is capable of doing ok in this division but needs someone to grab them by the scruffs of their necks and jolt them out of their malaise. That is Dougie and his teams job. SKD and the senior players need to be doing that as well. SKD would do well to look at a few videos of McGinlay. I know he is a quieter character, but seeing our captain display a bit of the McGinlay passion outwardly would inspire not only the crowd, but a few of the players. Maybe saving it for the Wolves match might be apt

[bobo the clown]

Did anyone else notice that when CYL won the penalty after a vg run and taking a bit of a kick no-one, no-one at all went to him ? Not to see if he was ok, not to tell him well done, not to help him help him up.

When the penalty was scored, again v little recognition of his part in it.

Suggests to me either an issue between him & the others or the near total lack of spirit in the squad.

You can do all the team circles, one-to-one bear hugs and 'low-fives' you like but team spirit is either there or it's not & I just wondered at that moment if there was evidence of a total lack of it.

It was v odd.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

That's absolute bollox. I'll repeat: I'm relaying what radio commentators say... I read the media reports which are, in the main, far more unbiased than some of our own fans and that's it. I'd be quite happy to just sit back and listen to the game and not bother. I'm sure not taking any shxt about passing on a radio commentary, bet your life on that buddy.

I for one, when not at the match, look forward to your reports TD. Never mind the bollox, keep up the good work... some of us appreciate it.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

That's absolute bollox. I'll repeat: I'm relaying what radio commentators say... I read the media reports which are, in the main, far more unbiased than some of our own fans and that's it. I'd be quite happy to just sit back and listen to the game and not bother. I'm sure not taking any shxt about passing on a radio commentary, bet your life on that buddy.

I for one, when not at the match, look forward to your reports TD. Never mind the bollox, keep up the good work... some of us appreciate it.

+1

[bobo the clown]

That's absolute bollox. I'll repeat: I'm relaying what radio commentators say... I read the media reports which are, in the main, far more unbiased than some of our own fans and that's it. I'd be quite happy to just sit back and listen to the game and not bother. I'm sure not taking any shxt about passing on a radio commentary, bet your life on that buddy.

I for one, when not at the match, look forward to your reports TD. Never mind the bollox, keep up the good work... some of us appreciate it.

+1

+1+1

[TKIZ!]

Me too TD, I enjoy the match updates when not at the games

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Just to clarify. I appreciate your commentary. I don't enjoy the matches mind

[BL3]

I would argue that this set of players is not as talented as we thought they were and Coyle told us.

Not as talented as squad that Barnsley have? Or Ipswich? Or Sheffield Wednesday? Or Peterborough?

[plymouth wanderer]

That's absolute bollox. I'll repeat: I'm relaying what radio commentators say... I read the media reports which are, in the main, far more unbiased than some of our own fans and that's it. I'd be quite happy to just sit back and listen to the game and not bother. I'm sure not taking any shxt about passing on a radio commentary, bet your life on that buddy.

I for one, when not at the match, look forward to your reports TD. Never mind the bollox, keep up the good work... some of us appreciate it.

+1

+1+1

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I would argue that this set of players is not as talented as we thought they were and Coyle told us.

Not as talented as squad that Barnsley have? Or Ipswich? Or Sheffield Wednesday? Or Peterborough?

You're as predictable as usual

I have not made any statements with regards to anyones squad but our own. So what has your little set of trolling questions got anything to do with it? If I had stated we had a better or worse squad than another then your question would make sense. As it is, you're just trolling...again

[BL3]

I would argue that this set of players is not as talented as we thought they were and Coyle told us.

Not as talented as squad that Barnsley have? Or Ipswich? Or Sheffield Wednesday? Or Peterborough?

You're as predictable as usual

I have not made any statements with regards to anyones squad but our own. So what has your little set of trolling questions got anything to do with it? If I had stated we had a better or worse squad than another then your question would make sense. As it is, you're just trolling...again

I'll spell it out for you then. We've taken one point from those teams under Freedman. So is our squad worse than theirs or not?

[truewhite15]

I would argue that this set of players is not as talented as we thought they were and Coyle told us.

Not as talented as squad that Barnsley have? Or Ipswich? Or Sheffield Wednesday? Or Peterborough?

Well, to be frank, two successive managers have now failed to get "The Best" out of them - one manager assembled them, the other one has taken them over. I'd suggest that that means either;

1) The players are, in fact, shite talentwise. The previous boss was a fool for signing them, and the new boss can't polish a turd.

2) The players are, in fact, shite mentally. The previous boss was a fool for signing them and letting them get that way, and the current boss is a bit crap for having difficulty changing the mental state.

3) The players are shite mentally. The previous boss is still a fool, but the problems with them run deeper than the new boss can reasonably be expected to fix.

Freedman's said it himself. There's a mentality of losing around the place. Maybe turning that mentality around is a bit more difficult than we all care to think.

Oh, and I'm a Freedman neutral. I'll happily say that yesterday's first sub was shocking. But I still think he should be given another year (barring disaster) to fix us.

[bobo the clown]

3) The players are shite mentally. The previous boss is still a fool, but the problems with them run deeper than the new boss can reasonably be expected to fix.

Freedman's said it himself. There's a mentality of losing around the place. Maybe turning that mentality around is a bit more difficult than we all care to think.

Oh, and I'm a Freedman neutral. I'll happily say that yesterday's first sub was shocking. But I still think he should be given another year (barring disaster) to fix us.

I'm more or less here.

Can anyone even begin to explain Afobe to me ?

He offers absolutely f'call. Nothing. Not a thing.

Yet Coyle picked him endlessly, Freedman plays him frequently.

I assume he's "a good lad" and that he "puts in a shift" in training, but if that's really what gets you a place then maybe the managers need to review their opinions.

To have replaced Lee with him yesterday was amazing. He proceeded to do what he always does ... nothing.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I would argue that this set of players is not as talented as we thought they were and Coyle told us.

Not as talented as squad that Barnsley have? Or Ipswich? Or Sheffield Wednesday? Or Peterborough?

You're as predictable as usual

I have not made any statements with regards to anyones squad but our own. So what has your little set of trolling questions got anything to do with it? If I had stated we had a better or worse squad than another then your question would make sense. As it is, you're just trolling...again

I'll spell it out for you then. We've taken one point from those teams under Freedman. So is our squad worse than theirs or not?

Why are you asking me? I don't give a shit about any of those teams. All I was saying was Fraziers theory of a great squad was wrong in my opinion.

Instead of repetitive pointless trolling questions, why don't you state what you think of our squad.

[BL3]

Freedman's said it himself. There's a mentality of losing around the place. Maybe turning that mentality around is a bit more difficult than we all care to think.

You mean like the losing mentality Mick McCarthy inherited at Ipswich? Because he doesn't seem to be making as much of a meal of turning it around as Freedman.

[BL3]

Why are you asking me?

You said our squad is 'not as talented as we thought they were'. I'm asking you whether it's worse than the teams that have been down at the bottom of the league all season and from whom we've taken one whole point. It either is or it isn't.

[Gail Platz]

Freedman's said it himself. There's a mentality of losing around the place. Maybe turning that mentality around is a bit more difficult than we all care to think.

You mean like the losing mentality Mick McCarthy inherited at Ipswich? Because he doesn't seem to be making as much of a meal of turning it around as Freedman.

Mate, I agree with you on most of your points, but for heaven's sake give it a rest banging on about Mick McCarthy and Ipswich! I even agree with you on that point but if I'm sick of it, I bet others that don't agree are even more so!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Why are you asking me?

You said our squad is 'not as talented as we thought they were'. I'm asking you whether it's worse than the teams that have been down at the bottom of the league all season and from whom we've taken one whole point. It either is or it isn't.

Considering I couldn't name more than 1 or 2 players from those teams it is a pointless question that still bears little relevance to the point I was making.

So, what do you think of our squad?

[BL3]

Considering I couldn't name more than 1 or 2 players from those teams it is a pointless question that still bears little relevance to the point I was making.

So, what do you think of our squad?

It has every relevance to the point you were making. Because either you're seriously suggesting that we can't be expected to beat the teams i mentioned, or Dougie's not getting the best out of them. So which is it? I've already made it clear what i think of our squad. It's more than good enough to win promotion from this league.