The Great Art Debate

[Lost Leopard Spot]

A Banksy up for auction. Which beggars at least three questions?
How does anybody know it is (a Banksy)?
Does it not lose its graffito status after being jackhammered out of a wall?
Why would anybody want to 'own' it?

[bobo the clown]

I have to confess - I pretty much hate what he does, pretty much the same, once, then again, and then for the thousandth time - and, i admit - with skill and boldness - and imagination - and cleverness - but so little else...

Hey, I guess, how much more are you entitled to ask for?

not much, I suppose... but, I would like...

A heart... an emotional centre... a curiosity... a dynamic... a future... a transcendence... a possibility of change... an uncertainty... a movement... a fluidity...

..... and the same political views as you maybe ??

[clapton is god]

I have to confess - I pretty much hate what he does, pretty much the same, once, then again, and then for the thousandth time - and, i admit - with skill and boldness - and imagination - and cleverness - but so little else...

Hey, I guess, how much more are you entitled to ask for?

not much, I suppose... but, I would like...

A heart... an emotional centre... a curiosity... a dynamic... a future... a transcendence... a possibility of change... an uncertainty... a movement... a fluidity...

..... and the same political views as you maybe ??

And near fanatical devotion to the Pope?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Tomorrow, on that essential channel, BBC4 at 9.00pm Great Artists in their Own Words offers glimpses into the ideas of Dali, Magritte, Matisse and others. Guardian recommends as one of their picks of the day.

I liked Man Ray best... some fairly mystifying detours (L S Lowry, even though I genuinely like him, is hardly a turning point in 20th Century Art - perhaps simply a semi colon in proletarian realism - as in, without the politics). But will stick. Dali was such a wanker - heartless, money-grubbing prick.

Worth catching I reckon, and maybe worth sticking with.

Thanks Will - I'm in tonight so will iPlayer it.

I enjoyed the Turner programme. It's funny, because we look at Turner's paintings of steam trains and steam tugboats and they can't help but look quaintly nostalgic, but back then they were of course the brash images of modernity.

As for Dali... I think he was guilty of all of those things as well as being a sexual deviant. He was, however, a great painter - the "last of the old masters", as Brian Sewell has it.

I admire Dali's work without ever truly liking it. It seems so self satisfied, such deliberate artifice. No idea what Sewell means by that - care to develop the point? Either Sewell's argument or your support of it?

I will dig out the context in Sewell's autobiography tonight.

I take it to mean simply that he was one of the last painters to handle paint and depict light in that 'painterly' tradition of the old masters.

I have seen a few Dali paintings sell in the past year (none of them particularly famous) and one thing that has struck me is that whatever the subject matter is, they are all skillfully and sensitively painted.

I can't think of many big figures in art since Dali who belong to the tradition of old master painterliness. Can you?

[William the White]

I have to confess - I pretty much hate what he does, pretty much the same, once, then again, and then for the thousandth time - and, i admit - with skill and boldness - and imagination - and cleverness - but so little else...

Hey, I guess, how much more are you entitled to ask for?

not much, I suppose... but, I would like...

A heart... an emotional centre... a curiosity... a dynamic... a future... a transcendence... a possibility of change... an uncertainty... a movement... a fluidity...

..... and the same political views as you maybe ??

Obviously it would be nice if an artist you admired shared your political views - but I like and defend Tracey Emin, you may recall, and she votes conservative. Whereas I don't. Did you know?

Dali was a strong supporter of General Franco, it's true, but that isn't why his art doesn't work for me.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I have to confess - I pretty much hate what he does, pretty much the same, once, then again, and then for the thousandth time - and, i admit - with skill and boldness - and imagination - and cleverness - but so little else...

Hey, I guess, how much more are you entitled to ask for?

not much, I suppose... but, I would like...

A heart... an emotional centre... a curiosity... a dynamic... a future... a transcendence... a possibility of change... an uncertainty... a movement... a fluidity...

..... and the same political views as you maybe ??

Obviously it would be nice if an artist you admired shared your political views - but I like and defend Tracey Emin, you may recall, and she votes conservative. Whereas I don't. Did you know?

Dali was a strong supporter of General Franco, it's true, but that isn't why his art doesn't work for me.

Was he?
I thought he self-exiled to France during the Franco years, and I'm sure that the Dadaists (whom Dali counted himself as one) had a very strong International Socialist ethos.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I have to confess - I pretty much hate what he does, pretty much the same, once, then again, and then for the thousandth time - and, i admit - with skill and boldness - and imagination - and cleverness - but so little else...

Hey, I guess, how much more are you entitled to ask for?

not much, I suppose... but, I would like...

A heart... an emotional centre... a curiosity... a dynamic... a future... a transcendence... a possibility of change... an uncertainty... a movement... a fluidity...

..... and the same political views as you maybe ??

Obviously it would be nice if an artist you admired shared your political views - but I like and defend Tracey Emin, you may recall, and she votes conservative. Whereas I don't. Did you know?

Dali was a strong supporter of General Franco, it's true, but that isn't why his art doesn't work for me.

Was he?
I thought he self-exiled to France during the Franco years, and I'm sure that the Dadaists (whom Dali counted himself as one) had a very strong International Socialist ethos.

No need to reply, I've just read up on it and I see he went back to Spain in 1949... and accepted Franco. Ok.

[Bruce Rioja]

Can the mods put one of those things on like they did for kitchens so that every time William mentions Tracey Emin it pops up as 'The Emperor's New Outfit' instead please?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

LLS - seeing as you are good at fact-checking...

I have a theory that this painting by Turner must have its fictional coastline inspired by the three 'faraglioni' of Capri.

http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/william ... 1829#close" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.capri.com/en/s/the-faraglioni-of-capri" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any thoughts? Do you know of anywhere with a similar rock formation that Turner could have seen?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Can the mods put one of those things on like they did for Blackburn so that every time William mentions Tracey Emin it pops up as 'The Emperor's New Outfit' instead please?

Is William the White one of the names embroidered onto her tent?

[Montreal Wanderer]

LLS - seeing as you are good at fact-checking...

I have a theory that this painting by Turner must have its fictional coastline inspired by the three 'faraglioni' of Capri.

http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/william ... 1829#close" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.capri.com/en/s/the-faraglioni-of-capri" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any thoughts? Do you know of anywhere with a similar rock formation that Turner could have seen?

It seems to me that Turner's rock have holes through them, unlike Capri. There are many such formation. For example:



There are also the apostles off Victoria's coast (Oz), and doubtless some in the UK.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

One of the Capri rocks does have such a hole.

And he painted that just after a trip to Italy.

[Montreal Wanderer]

One of the Capri rocks does have such a hole.

And he painted that just after a trip to Italy.

Well, then your theory is tenable although I thought he had been sketching out the concept for several years.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

One of the Capri rocks does have such a hole.

And he painted that just after a trip to Italy.

Well, then your theory is tenable although I thought he had been sketching out the concept for several years.

Interesting - where have you got this from?

[Montreal Wanderer]

One of the Capri rocks does have such a hole.

And he painted that just after a trip to Italy.

Well, then your theory is tenable although I thought he had been sketching out the concept for several years.

Interesting - where have you got this from?

Hang on, I'll have to do a little research - may take a while....

[Montreal Wanderer]

Okay. The painting is generally dated 1829. The National Gallery states:

Ulysses is standing aloft on his ship deriding the Cyclops, whom he and his companions have just left blinded, and invoking the vengeance of Neptune. One of the flags is painted with the scene of the Trojan Horse. The horses of the Sun are rising above the horizon ('Odyssey', Book 9).

Apparently the idea was in Turner's mind as early as about 1807, if this is the correct date of a sketchbook which contains a rough drawing of the subject. The picture was exhibited at the Royal Academy in 1829.

Meanwhile [url=http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/tur ... mus-n02958] the Tate[/url shows earlier sketches stating

This is one of seven oil sketches originally on one long roll of canvas, which Turner is usually thought to have painted in Rome in 1828, though he may have worked on them earlier. Tack holes round the edges show that Turner attached them to a temporary support, such as a board, while working. These sketches set out classical compositions in the manner of Claude Lorrain. This design was used for his picture Ulysses deriding Polyphemus, exhibited in 1829 (now in the National Gallery) which shows the escaping hero of Homer's Odyssey taunting the one-eyed giant, Polyphemus.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Just to add that there is a similar formation on the coast at Piombino... I will do some digging too.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Tomorrow, on that essential channel, BBC4 at 9.00pm Great Artists in their Own Words offers glimpses into the ideas of Dali, Magritte, Matisse and others. Guardian recommends as one of their picks of the day.

I liked Man Ray best... some fairly mystifying detours (L S Lowry, even though I genuinely like him, is hardly a turning point in 20th Century Art - perhaps simply a semi colon in proletarian realism - as in, without the politics). But will stick. Dali was such a wanker - heartless, money-grubbing prick.

Worth catching I reckon, and maybe worth sticking with.

Thanks Will - I'm in tonight so will iPlayer it.

I enjoyed the Turner programme. It's funny, because we look at Turner's paintings of steam trains and steam tugboats and they can't help but look quaintly nostalgic, but back then they were of course the brash images of modernity.

As for Dali... I think he was guilty of all of those things as well as being a sexual deviant. He was, however, a great painter - the "last of the old masters", as Brian Sewell has it.

I admire Dali's work without ever truly liking it. It seems so self satisfied, such deliberate artifice. No idea what Sewell means by that - care to develop the point? Either Sewell's argument or your support of it?

I will dig out the context in Sewell's autobiography tonight.

I take it to mean simply that he was one of the last painters to handle paint and depict light in that 'painterly' tradition of the old masters.

I have seen a few Dali paintings sell in the past year (none of them particularly famous) and one thing that has struck me is that whatever the subject matter is, they are all skillfully and sensitively painted.

I can't think of many big figures in art since Dali who belong to the tradition of old master painterliness. Can you?

I have checked and Sewell doesn't develop the point at all. And the actual quote is "last of the great old masters".

Perhaps the fact that is an interesting claim is why I (nearly) remembered it.

Anyway, that chapter in the book is all about Sewell's personal 'friendship' with Dali, if that can be the right word for so odd a human being, Exactly the same material can be found in a TV programme BS made, 'Dirty Dali', which can be found in full on You Tube, if you are at all interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYQ6LCe2Mg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Hang on Mummy... I'm getting there. The preliminary answer would be No. It ain't a scene painted at Capri. I will reveal more in a bit...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Hang on Mummy... I'm getting there. The preliminary answer would be No. It ain't a scene painted at Capri. I will reveal more in a bit...

Ah, balls.

Though you have worded that quite carefully - the scene could be inspired by Capri without being painted at Capri.