Bruce or Sam.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

It's interesting how many use the word 'cynical' about Allardyce, with pejorative undertones.

That's precisely what I loved him for.

[BL3]

I think there are two impressive things about Allardyce not just that he wanted to bring those players in, but that he found a way to make it financially possible, bring them in on frees in the latter part of their careers.

I think Djorkaeff's signing was initially a last minute loan deal. It was only possible because he wasn't in Kaiserslautern's team at the time and he wanted to be part of the French squad in that summer's World Cup. Allardyce's talent was in spotting a potential opportunity. Once we'd signed Djorkaeff permanently, signing the others became a bit easier, especially when we were offering massive wages.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Getting ageing freebies in on high-wage, low-return deals: Allardyce's idea or Gartside's? Certainly Eddie's money.

Again, not to take away from Allardyce, but it's not like we've only ever had two good men associated with the club since 1980.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Colin Todd was on a radio show a few years ago and he told a story about how he and Rioch would often sit down at the end of the day and chat about which players they'd sign if they ever had the funds to do so at Bolton. Rioch's number one choice was an Ajax player who had just started to make his mark. Dennis Bergkamp. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that if Rioch had stayed he would also have been trying to sign players like Djorkaeff and Okocha.

It's a lovely story, thanks for that. I could get on with you as long as we don't mention Freedman...

[BWFC_Insane]

I think there are two impressive things about Allardyce not just that he wanted to bring those players in, but that he found a way to make it financially possible, bring them in on frees in the latter part of their careers.

I think Djorkaeff's signing was initially a last minute loan deal. It was only possible because he wasn't in Kaiserslautern's team at the time and he wanted to be part of the French squad in that summer's World Cup. Allardyce's talent was in spotting a potential opportunity. Once we'd signed Djorkaeff permanently, signing the others became a bit easier, especially when we were offering massive wages.

He was released from his contract at Kaiserslautern so did sign on a free (till the end of the season).

This was in February (no transfer windows then!).

But important to remember that whilst Youri was the first "HUGE" name. Earlier that season we'd signed NGotty on loan from Marseille! Which was a pretty big deal in itself.

[Lord Kangana]

Colin Todd was on a radio show a few years ago and he told a story about how he and Rioch would often sit down at the end of the day and chat about which players they'd sign if they ever had the funds to do so at Bolton. Rioch's number one choice was an Ajax player who had just started to make his mark. Dennis Bergkamp. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that if Rioch had stayed he would also have been trying to sign players like Djorkaeff and Okocha.

I agree Rioch was fiercely ambitious like Allardyce.

And the Reebok was a legacy that allowed Allardyce to deliver those players.

I think there are two impressive things about Allardyce not just that he wanted to bring those players in, but that he found a way to make it financially possible, bring them in on frees in the latter part of their careers. But that in itself only is part of the story. Allardyce managed those players brilliantly and made it work. He blended home-grown players like Hunt and Nolan, with the big superstars and found a formula to make it work.

When did Eddie Davies get involved? His cash was obviously a big help to Sam.

2003

An old source of mine, who's family used to have a great deal of involvement in, and therefore info on the workings of the club said at the time that one of Gartside's primary missions was to woo a benefactor. I believe that Eddie Davies was in and around the club well before that date, though admittedly I don't know when his financial involvement started. Was it he who helped to bring in Djorkaeff, or Djorkaeff who persuaded Eddie Davies?

[bw@bw]

Armfield is not in this race - he was was only any good because of his No 2 - Ian Greaves

Armfield took Leeds to a European Cup final when he left us...

Jimmy Armfield was a great full back, an England captain and in later years a good 5 Live summariser and FA VIP.
But he was never more than a very ordinary manager who was in the right place at the right time.
The great players - and there were several in that despicable but genuinely great Leeds team- ran the show and treated Jimmy Armfield with contempt. Billy Bremner summed him up - "The managers indecision is final"

Ian Greaves was a proven manager when he came to us. He had taken Huddersfield up to the First Division, with a young lad called Frank Worthington leading the line, and had developed a style of play based on keeping the ball that was ahead of its time (for this country at any rate).

Jimmy Armfield went to Leeds at the right time- for us and for him--and that let Ian Greaves develop the team in his own image- and create what for me was the most enjoyable period as a Wanderer- although it did take several attempts to get into the First Division.

I suppose that if I had been a teenager in the 1990's, I might be voting for Bruce- but by then the romance had gone out of it.

In the end, Sam's achievements stand head and shoulders above anything else in my watching lifetime (first match 1962 so too young for the 1958 cup).
Watching Okocha and Le God swap 60 yard passes was beyond anything I could have hoped for.

But it was Ian Greaves who made it all possible. After all, he gave Sam his start in the game, and passed on his coaching and management nous in his later years

[Worthy4England]

Armfield is not in this race - he was was only any good because of his No 2 - Ian Greaves

Armfield took Leeds to a European Cup final when he left us...

Jimmy Armfield was a great full back, an England captain and in later years a good 5 Live summariser and FA VIP.
But he was never more than a very ordinary manager who was in the right place at the right time.
The great players - and there were several in that despicable but genuinely great Leeds team- ran the show and treated Jimmy Armfield with contempt. Billy Bremner summed him up - "The managers indecision is final"

Ian Greaves was a proven manager when he came to us. He had taken Huddersfield up to the First Division, with a young lad called Frank Worthington leading the line, and had developed a style of play based on keeping the ball that was ahead of its time (for this country at any rate).

Jimmy Armfield went to Leeds at the right time- for us and for him--and that let Ian Greaves develop the team in his own image- and create what for me was the most enjoyable period as a Wanderer- although it did take several attempts to get into the First Division.

I suppose that if I had been a teenager in the 1990's, I might be voting for Bruce- but by then the romance had gone out of it.

In the end, Sam's achievements stand head and shoulders above anything else in my watching lifetime (first match 1962 so too young for the 1958 cup).
Watching Okocha and Le God swap 60 yard passes was beyond anything I could have hoped for.

But it was Ian Greaves who made it all possible. After all, he gave Sam his start in the game, and passed on his coaching and management nous in his later years

Can't see much wrong in this assessment.

[BL3]

But he was never more than a very ordinary manager who was in the right place at the right time. The great players - and there were several in that despicable but genuinely great Leeds team- ran the show and treated Jimmy Armfield with contempt. Billy Bremner summed him up - "The managers indecision is final"

They treated everyone with contempt, including Brian Clough.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

But he was never more than a very ordinary manager who was in the right place at the right time. The great players - and there were several in that despicable but genuinely great Leeds team- ran the show and treated Jimmy Armfield with contempt. Billy Bremner summed him up - "The managers indecision is final"

They treated everyone with contempt, including Brian Clough.

Indeed. It's before my era, but again I don't see the need for people to denigrate decent managers. As a successful Bolton manager, a good journalist and an exceedingly pleasant interviewee, Gentleman Jim's something of a hero to me - a picture of him typing away on the Blackpool Gazette adorns our office wall, just above Orwell's Rules of Writing.

[bobo the clown]

Jimmy, or Mr. Armfield, was a true gentleman ... a seriously nice man and a good coach though Greaves did a great deal of that too. I wouldn't underestimate what he did for steadying a ship which had more managers back then than Blackburn have recently.

[bwfcdan94]

BSA is on a league of their own this evening.

[bw@bw]

But he was never more than a very ordinary manager who was in the right place at the right time. The great players - and there were several in that despicable but genuinely great Leeds team- ran the show and treated Jimmy Armfield with contempt. Billy Bremner summed him up - "The managers indecision is final"

They treated everyone with contempt, including Brian Clough.

Indeed. It's before my era, but again I don't see the need for people to denigrate decent managers. As a successful Bolton manager, a good journalist and an exceedingly pleasant interviewee, Gentleman Jim's something of a hero to me - a picture of him typing away on the Blackpool Gazette adorns our office wall, just above Orwell's Rules of Writing.

Jimmy Armfield - is all of the wonderful things you say. and a worthy hero. This discussion is not in any way to denigrate him.

If those Leeds bastards could chew up Brian Clough, then a bloke as nice as Jimmy had no chance
But this discussion came from an earlier poster saying that Ian Greaves was only successful because he picked up on JA legacy.

Sorry, but that part is just not how it was.

Greaves was the master coach and tactician - also incidentally a very nice man - and in the pantheon of Wanderers managers - Sam, Greaves, Rioch all come well ahead of Jimmy Armfield

[FaninOz]

Bruce for me, I was so sad when he left us. Best football that we had played for years and as people have said the foundation and belief on which Sam was able to build.

[danardif1]

As someone who has been a Wanderer mostly through Big Sam's era I'd have to with him. He took us to places we'd never ever dream of, gave us Super Kev, Nolan, Jay Jay, Youri, Dioufy, Campo, Stelios and Fernando sodding Hierro(!)... got us into Europe on a comparative shoestring, innovated off the field with Prozone and other space age tech that got the best out of what we had. Even after he left, by proxy (and I hope Megson knows it) he gave us Munich. The club as it is now is a shadow of what it was under Big Sam, and it saddens me to think that when it seemed so easy to just carry it through...

BUT

Looking back on clips and snippets now, the Rioch era seemed like a bloody good time. Attractive football from a good stock of old-school British players, club heroes like Super John, finding lesser-known European talents like Paatelainen and blooding new talents like McAteer, Thompson and Stubbs. That rise up the divisions was fast and must've been a hell of a ride. Perhaps we're due something like that if we continue to struggle to get over the Big Sam era...