The Politics Thread

[thebish]

how do you make sure everyone has access to education

These are big important questions - perhaps for another day.

almost word-for-word what you wouldn't let Pru away with!!

[Prufrock]

It worked out at 77% of those in Europe earning over a million euros (2,700ish out of 3,500ish). Our banking sector is big, but it isn't that big. They get paid shit loads.

What are the figures then? How big is our banking sector compared to the rest of Europe? What percentage by value of all the different kinds of banking work went through London last year?

It's all very well for to then say 'and that's another issue - we're too reliant on banking'... if this is the problem you want to highlight, why don't you say so and do it with more precision?

I don't think its outrageous to say: either, and this seems more likely, but I don't know, our banking system doesn't account for 77% of all of Europe's and so why are we paying them so much; or, what the feck, why on earth is our financial sector so large that accounts for 77% of all of bloody Europe's?

Aren't you at least interested in finding out the answer - are you not frustrated that you can't properly evaluate the numbers you're looking at without this knowledge.

I wouldn't be surprised if by several measures, or in a few areas of banking, we do do more banking business than the rest of Europe combined and there are lots of reasons for this - such as the historic and language-based reasons we do so much financial business with America and Asia than other European countries.

I'm happy just to have reached the starting line of the right question .

In all seriousness, yes, but not at lunchtime on a Tuesday! The reason given for the huge proportion was that we have so many investment bankers. I think either of the scenarios I've mentioned is a problem, but I agree it's important to figure out which it is, or more likely, to what extent it's a combination of each.

[Prufrock]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

And it taught me the same. The reason you and I aren't there anymore is because we have skills the economy values. We are lucky to have those skills. That's my point. I think a lot of people think that, because they do work hard, that's why they do well and not because they are lucky. People are then ok with other people struggling because it must be because they don't work hard. I don't think it's conscious, and I think its understandable, but I think its bad for society and its a symptom of valuing money and ambition over all else.

We're lucky to have had the opportunities we have had to be able to choose to acquire those skills. But then that's what the focus should be - giving everyone those opportunities to the fullest extent possible - rather than messing with the fundamental thing that drives us on.

I don't disagree. I just think it's important that we better recognise that people don't get what they 'deserve' in this system with all the loaded connotations of that word. They get what markets (free or less so) deem they are worth. I think that's a point that has been lost somewhat.

[thebish]

We're lucky to have had the opportunities we have had to be able to choose to acquire those skills. But then that's what the focus should be - giving everyone those opportunities to the fullest extent possible - rather than messing with the fundamental thing that drives us on.

what is the fundamental thing that drives us on?

[Prufrock]

ahhh - you mean summer jobs...

what steps do you want to help people take - how would you do it? if you were successful - who would make your sandwiches?? and who would make your packaging?

I'm not sure why I am being asked for a manifesto here - I am not the one in the habit of decorating my rants with irrelevant tinsel about having worked in a factory.

1. I would like anyone to have access to education if they want it.

2. I want sandwich-making to be done by people who are happy making sandwiches, or by those who are using it as filler while they work towards something better (see point 1).

If your point is that working in a factory is hard work, then it isn't irrelevant tinsel to say you know this because you worked in a factory. Gratuitous perhaps, but hardly irrelevant!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

We're lucky to have had the opportunities we have had to be able to choose to acquire those skills. But then that's what the focus should be - giving everyone those opportunities to the fullest extent possible - rather than messing with the fundamental thing that drives us on.

what is the fundamental thing that drives us on?

Fundamental perhaps too strong a word...

but I think what drives most people on in the jobs market, at least at the lower paid end, is the knowledge that we will earn more money if we make ourselves more suitable for jobs that pay more.

I don't know - if everybody were 'comfortable' and didn't have to 'struggle', even in the worst paid jobs, I think would reduce people's drive to better themselves and learn more skills.

[thebish]

i just think you are being pretty imprecise here...

is earning more money "bettering yourself"?? if so - how?

how is someone who earns more money in any meaningful sense, "better"? the best ways of bettering yourself (I think) are fundamentally nothing to do with earning more money...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

i just think you are being pretty imprecise here...

is earning more money "bettering yourself"?? if so - how?

how is someone who earns more money in any meaningful sense, "better"? the best ways of bettering yourself (I think) are fundamentally nothing to do with earning more money...

I just mean learning new skills that are useful to the world, really. A major motivation for doing that for most people, I would say, is the desire to earn more money. I'm not saying that people with more money are in any sense better - it's just a strong incentive for lots of people (especially those that don't start with very much).

'To better oneself' is rarely used in the sense of making oneself a 'better person' - but I know you know this really.

[thebish]

i just think you are being pretty imprecise here...

is earning more money "bettering yourself"?? if so - how?

how is someone who earns more money in any meaningful sense, "better"? the best ways of bettering yourself (I think) are fundamentally nothing to do with earning more money...

I just mean learning new skills that are useful to the world, really. A major motivation for doing that for most people, I would say, is the desire to earn more money. I'm not saying that people with more money are in any sense better - it's just a strong incentive for lots of people (especially those that don't start with very much).

'To better oneself' is rarely used in the sense of making oneself a 'better person' - but I know you know this really.

you seem to be equating earning more money with "learning new skills that are useful to the world". do you really mean that? In what sense does a nurse or a care assistant need to learn more skills and become more useful to the world?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Part of the issue, it seems to me, is that what we value (in the sense of remuneration) often is actually less valuable to the world than lesser paid jobs that often entail a fair amount of skill.

[Athers]

Certainly buying some commodity at 8am and selling it for a profit a few hours later doesn't feel as useful or as obviously value add to the economy as turning some bricks into a house, but I guess it's unclear

There's a school of thought that too many top brains are being pulled into high finance and indeed law, rather than being engineers or something like that.

[Hoboh]

i just think you are being pretty imprecise here...

is earning more money "bettering yourself"?? if so - how?

how is someone who earns more money in any meaningful sense, "better"? the best ways of bettering yourself (I think) are fundamentally nothing to do with earning more money...

I just mean learning new skills that are useful to the world, really. A major motivation for doing that for most people, I would say, is the desire to earn more money. I'm not saying that people with more money are in any sense better - it's just a strong incentive for lots of people (especially those that don't start with very much).

'To better oneself' is rarely used in the sense of making oneself a 'better person' - but I know you know this really.

you seem to be equating earning more money with "learning new skills that are useful to the world". do you really mean that? In what sense does a nurse or a care assistant need to learn more skills and become more useful to the world?

Nawwww just some people fit in groups with club rules that stop anyone else from moving in, sort of the union closed shop but for toffs

[Worthy4England]

but at least trying to work out what the number would be and whether it would be worth losing them means the discussion is moving onto the right ground.

Good! Let me know when you're done with that calculation - will be happy to rejoin the discussion then.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

what is the fundamental thing that drives us on?

Petrol

[Lost Leopard Spot]

but at least trying to work out what the number would be...means the discussion is moving onto the right ground.

42

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I thank you.

[Montreal Wanderer]

but at least trying to work out what the number would be...means the discussion is moving onto the right ground.

42

But what's the ultimate question?

[Lord Kangana]

Tea or coffee?

I hate it when they say coffee. Its both wrong and time consuming.

[Hoboh]

Britons most dangerous man strikes again!!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... ation-stop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Poor, poor Lib-Dems this guy is killing your party stone dead and like the fools you are you let him get away with it

RIP 2015

[Hoboh]