The Debt.

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

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Izual_Rebirth
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Izual_Rebirth » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:22 pm

Relentless09 wrote:
Izual_Rebirth wrote:Why are people burying their head in the sands over this?

If our losses are more than double our income then we're on track for administration. £163 at the moment... £200+ next year... £250+ the year after that... when will it stop? Face it... we're f***ed.

It probably costs more to service those debts than our turnover. Might as well go into administration now and get it over with rather than suffer the sort of slow painful death Portsmouth went through.
Going into administration is a horrific idea, why would we sell assets like the stadium, training ground etc ? Many clubs wish they had assets like ours.
Because we're going to be forced to at some point. Might as well get it out of the way now.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by ChrisC » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:24 pm

We owe all but around 10 million to Eddie Davies. Why would we need to go into administration? Its not like owing the banks or HMRC.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by bobo the clown » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:31 pm

Izual_Rebirth wrote:
Relentless09 wrote:
Izual_Rebirth wrote:Why are people burying their head in the sands over this?

If our losses are more than double our income then we're on track for administration. £163 at the moment... £200+ next year... £250+ the year after that... when will it stop? Face it... we're f***ed.

It probably costs more to service those debts than our turnover. Might as well go into administration now and get it over with rather than suffer the sort of slow painful death Portsmouth went through.
Going into administration is a horrific idea, why would we sell assets like the stadium, training ground etc ? Many clubs wish they had assets like ours.
Because we're going to be forced to at some point. Might as well get it out of the way now.
Did you understand my points, above ?
You cant just say "hey, it's getting tough, lets go into Administration".

Oh & I should have added ... if we are 'backs-to-the-wall' then any sale will get rock bottom values.

Fck ... it's only a couple of months since we bought the hotel back.

Eddie Davies is the man who is owed all this money. ... & he's the man who owns the club. If he defaults somehow HE's the one who loses all this value. Why would he do that ?

We have enough problems right now, don't go wishing more on us.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:32 pm

ChrisC wrote:We owe all but around 10 million to Eddie Davies. Why would we need to go into administration? Its not like owing the banks or HMRC.
Correct. Should Burnden Leisure go into admin, then the main claimant would be Moonshift Invesments which is owned by Eddie. Fildraw (which is Eddies owns Burnden Leisure - which is effectively Eddies).

Dunno why we would go into admin...unless ED wanted to capitalise some assets. Given he's just accepted a debt resturcture over the longer term, and he ain't stupid, can't see what the benefit would be...

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Hoboh » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:38 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
ChrisC wrote:We owe all but around 10 million to Eddie Davies. Why would we need to go into administration? Its not like owing the banks or HMRC.
Correct. Should Burnden Leisure go into admin, then the main claimant would be Moonshift Invesments which is owned by Eddie. Fildraw (which is Eddies owns Burnden Leisure - which is effectively Eddies).

Dunno why we would go into admin...unless ED wanted to capitalise some assets. Given he's just accepted a debt resturcture over the longer term, and he ain't stupid, can't see what the benefit would be...
Moot point given he let Gartside inflict Megson, Coyle and Freedman on us :mrgreen:

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Re: The Debt.

Post by sluffy » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:24 am

The question as I see it, is where did Davies get his wealth from and how much as he got?

As I understand it Davies was the CEO of the kettle business that got taken over about ten years back and he made a killing of £93 million from selling his shares.

A couple of points to mull over here, Until ten years or so back Davies was an employee - ok a highly paid one but neverthe less an employee. Would a fabulously wealthy multimilliaire bother about working for someone else - I can't see it myself as surely they would simply buy the company and run it as they wanted rather than answer to someone - I would anyway.

Also if Davies real wealth came from the sale of these shares his wealth (assuming he had a few bob in the bank to start off with) probably at most was £100 million.

Since then we've had a recession.

How then could Davies pump £150 million plus into the club?

That's half as much as his initial fortune AND amid a world recession.

Would anyone - let alone an astute businessman - put all his wealth (and more) into one venture? I can't see it myself.

The way I do see it is that the money from Moonshift to the club is not all from Davies pocket - there must be other investors pumping money into the club via Moonshift.

As long as these investors are in no rush to get there money back then there isn't a problem - and that seems to be the place where we are at now - all well and good then.

However if my thinking is correct it then troubles me when I ask myself the question who on earth would be happy enough to want to put millions into a business (which is clearly failing) and continue wanting to do so (there is a ten year pay back period built into when the debt is called in - ten years to wait to get your money back!)???

It just doesn't make any sense to me unless these 'investors' have ongoing unlimited income that they don't want to put into the banks. If so why do you think that might be?

Makes you think doesn't it - well it does me anyway.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Hoboh » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:33 am

Old but an insight,

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2010/ ... -debt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A gander at the last lot;

http://www.bwfc.co.uk/documents/burnden ... 470561.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Hoboh » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:57 am

sluffy wrote:The question as I see it, is where did Davies get his wealth from and how much as he got?

As I understand it Davies was the CEO of the kettle business that got taken over about ten years back and he made a killing of £93 million from selling his shares.

A couple of points to mull over here, Until ten years or so back Davies was an employee - ok a highly paid one but neverthe less an employee. Would a fabulously wealthy multimilliaire bother about working for someone else - I can't see it myself as surely they would simply buy the company and run it as they wanted rather than answer to someone - I would anyway.

Also if Davies real wealth came from the sale of these shares his wealth (assuming he had a few bob in the bank to start off with) probably at most was £100 million.

Since then we've had a recession.

How then could Davies pump £150 million plus into the club?

That's half as much as his initial fortune AND amid a world recession.

Would anyone - let alone an astute businessman - put all his wealth (and more) into one venture? I can't see it myself.

The way I do see it is that the money from Moonshift to the club is not all from Davies pocket - there must be other investors pumping money into the club via Moonshift.

As long as these investors are in no rush to get there money back then there isn't a problem - and that seems to be the place where we are at now - all well and good then.

However if my thinking is correct it then troubles me when I ask myself the question who on earth would be happy enough to want to put millions into a business (which is clearly failing) and continue wanting to do so (there is a ten year pay back period built into when the debt is called in - ten years to wait to get your money back!)???

It just doesn't make any sense to me unless these 'investors' have ongoing unlimited income that they don't want to put into the banks. If so why do you think that might be?

Makes you think doesn't it - well it does me anyway.
Do a bit of research on his pals here
http://www.squarestone.com.br/uk/compan ... embers.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are in one way or another probably into a whole lot more but it's late, I'm tired and due to a bowel clearout for some tests later I've get the bloody runs so I cannot be arsed :mrgreen:

Btw I am not suggesting anything improper by any of them merely highlighting the sorts of groups and individuals that may be involved with Eddie and why money is not a problem.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Izual_Rebirth » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:30 am

Do people really think that putting 50+ million into a dying club every year is sustainable for someone who has a value of about 100M?

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Re: The Debt.

Post by ChrisC » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:24 am

Izual_Rebirth wrote:Do people really think that putting 50+ million into a dying club every year is sustainable for someone who has a value of about 100M?
That's where your argument falls down. He wont be putting 50+ million into the club each year. We are working on bringing down our outgoings and investing in new business's and projects to help fund the club for years to come. For the next few years we have to speculate to accumulate. Things will get worse before they get better but at least we have a plan.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by boltonboris » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:35 am

He's worth more than £100m. Much, much, much more
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:06 am

The debt is money that he owes to himself. So far so good. In that respect, we haven't any immediate worry or need for admin.

My fear is if ever he calls it in against the club (assets etc), and perhaps not specifically him, but somebody who wants the money from him (a million and one scenarios, if you're willing to open your mind) and is also willing to take 10p/£ by asset-stripping the f*ck out of the club.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Izual_Rebirth » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:29 am

ChrisC wrote:
Izual_Rebirth wrote:Do people really think that putting 50+ million into a dying club every year is sustainable for someone who has a value of about 100M?
That's where your argument falls down. He wont be putting 50+ million into the club each year. We are working on bringing down our outgoings and investing in new business's and projects to help fund the club for years to come. For the next few years we have to speculate to accumulate. Things will get worse before they get better but at least we have a plan.
So your solution to us getting into debt is to... get into more debt? How many years of investing 50+ million into the club do you think we can take? 1? 2? 3?

The debt itself isn't the issue. It's the fact we're getting into more and more debt that is the bigger problem and your plan of spending more money and getting into even more debt on the hope that we'll some how start making more money than we're spending is... sorry to be rude... moronic.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Hoboh » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:35 am

Izual_Rebirth wrote:
ChrisC wrote:
Izual_Rebirth wrote:Do people really think that putting 50+ million into a dying club every year is sustainable for someone who has a value of about 100M?
That's where your argument falls down. He wont be putting 50+ million into the club each year. We are working on bringing down our outgoings and investing in new business's and projects to help fund the club for years to come. For the next few years we have to speculate to accumulate. Things will get worse before they get better but at least we have a plan.
So your solution to us getting into debt is to... get into more debt? How many years of investing 50+ million into the club do you think we can take? 1? 2? 3?

The debt itself isn't the issue. It's the fact we're getting into more and more debt that is the bigger problem and your plan of spending more money and getting into even more debt on the hope that we'll some how start making more money than we're spending is... sorry to be rude... moronic.
I think the first priority is taking place, reducing our out goings as a club, it won't happen overnight and due to blowing a quick return to the Prem last year it will be painfull.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Izual_Rebirth » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:52 am

Are there even 50m of cuts that we can make though? And we have to remember even cutting our spending by 50m doesn't actually mean we're paying off the debt! I would dare say that the amount of savings that can be made right now would be eclipsed by any interest on said debt.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:56 am

Izual_Rebirth wrote:Are there even 50m of cuts that we can make though? And we have to remember even cutting our spending by 50m doesn't actually mean we're paying off the debt! I would dare say that the amount of savings that can be made right now would be eclipsed by any interest on said debt.
We aren't paying any interest on the debt.

Last year we made a loss of £50M.

That needs to be cut to less than £8M next season in order to comply with FFP.

So essentially we need to "Lose" £42M less to avoid that penalty. That of course does not change the debt position.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by boltonboris » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:01 pm

Has it been confirmed that this loss includes the purchase of the Hotel?
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Re: The Debt.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:04 pm

boltonboris wrote:Has it been confirmed that this loss includes the purchase of the Hotel?
I don't think we technically "purchased it", just took over the running of it. I mean BL already owned the physical building.........

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:15 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Izual_Rebirth wrote:Are there even 50m of cuts that we can make though? And we have to remember even cutting our spending by 50m doesn't actually mean we're paying off the debt! I would dare say that the amount of savings that can be made right now would be eclipsed by any interest on said debt.
We aren't paying any interest on the debt.

Last year we made a loss of £50M.

That needs to be cut to less than £8M next season in order to comply with FFP.

So essentially we need to "Lose" £42M less to avoid that penalty. That of course does not change the debt position.
What is this 'Penalty'? does anybody (including whoever it is that's going to impose this penalty) know what the penalty comprises exactly?
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Re: The Debt.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:48 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Izual_Rebirth wrote:Are there even 50m of cuts that we can make though? And we have to remember even cutting our spending by 50m doesn't actually mean we're paying off the debt! I would dare say that the amount of savings that can be made right now would be eclipsed by any interest on said debt.
We aren't paying any interest on the debt.

Last year we made a loss of £50M.

That needs to be cut to less than £8M next season in order to comply with FFP.

So essentially we need to "Lose" £42M less to avoid that penalty. That of course does not change the debt position.
What is this 'Penalty'? does anybody (including whoever it is that's going to impose this penalty) know what the penalty comprises exactly?
It is a transfer ban with a possible fine as well (though I think the fine is only for clubs who have deliberately overspent).

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