Kiev
Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em
-
- Passionate
- Posts: 2449
- Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 pm
Kiev
getting rather serious this now, lads (and lasses)
21 dead just today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25182823" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
this timeline is quite fascinating - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
21 dead just today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25182823" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
this timeline is quite fascinating - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nero fiddles while Gordon Burns.
-
- Passionate
- Posts: 2449
- Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 pm
Re: Kiev
people being sniped in the street - warning, graphic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and a livestream of kiev - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zed_PCSw7pY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and a livestream of kiev - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zed_PCSw7pY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nero fiddles while Gordon Burns.
- Lost Leopard Spot
- Immortal
- Posts: 18436
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:14 am
- Location: In the long grass, hunting for a watering hole.
Re: Kiev
Mostly, the news channels in this (and other countries) are portraying this as a straightforward political clash... but it it isn't, it is far starker than that, it is a straightforward ethnic division - Ukrainians (of which the majority reside in Kiev and the west of the country) and Russians and Cossacks, of whom the greater proportion reside in the east. Russians and Cossacks make up a majority of the overall population, but the Ukrainians are a very large minority. Russians and Cossacks tend to align themselves politically with Russia, Ukrainians tend to align themselves with the West i.e, the EU, but it is the ethnic and linguistic barriers that are important, not the political differences. History shows that this sort of split in a state which once started with a small amount of bloodshed leads to civil war almost every time.
That's not a leopard!
頑張ってください
頑張ってください
- Lost Leopard Spot
- Immortal
- Posts: 18436
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:14 am
- Location: In the long grass, hunting for a watering hole.
Re: Kiev
blocked by work - graphic adult images. FFS, it's like living in a nanny state.KeyserSoze wrote:people being sniped in the street - warning, graphic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and a livestream of kiev - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zed_PCSw7pY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's not a leopard!
頑張ってください
頑張ってください
- Lost Leopard Spot
- Immortal
- Posts: 18436
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:14 am
- Location: In the long grass, hunting for a watering hole.
Re: Kiev
My sister made comparisons to the situation in Syria and how that all started and from your graphs it show something similar. One half of the country is pulling towards the far left the other to the right of the political spectrum.
The above post is complete bollox/garbage/nonsense, please point this out to me at any and every occasion possible.
- Lost Leopard Spot
- Immortal
- Posts: 18436
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:14 am
- Location: In the long grass, hunting for a watering hole.
Re: Kiev
That's precisely the opposite of what I'm saying. It's not really right and left, although that's how it's being portrayed, instead it's Ukrainian v Russian, just like Arab v Kurd in 1980s Iraq or Ibo v Yoruba in 1960s Nigerian Biafra war, or Hutu v Tutsi in Rwanda. Not political at all, but ethnic, linguistic.bwfcdan94 wrote:My sister made comparisons to the situation in Syria and how that all started and from your graphs it show something similar. One half of the country is pulling towards the far left the other to the right of the political spectrum.
That's not a leopard!
頑張ってください
頑張ってください
- Lost Leopard Spot
- Immortal
- Posts: 18436
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:14 am
- Location: In the long grass, hunting for a watering hole.
Re: Kiev
The only good thing about Ukraine at the moment is that they gave up their nuclear arsenal soon after independence. I can see this becoming World War III, really...
That's not a leopard!
頑張ってください
頑張ってください
Re: Kiev
I can see Putin suddenly deciding he has a load of 'terrorists' on his door step to deal with.Lost Leopard Spot wrote:The only good thing about Ukraine at the moment is that they gave up their nuclear arsenal soon after independence. I can see this becoming World War III, really...
The pro lobby will soon find out just how 'supportive' the EU can be then, unless they are happy for the hot air that will be heading their way.
Re: Kiev
Those maps are incredible.
http://www.twitter.com/dan_athers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Passionate
- Posts: 2449
- Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 pm
-
- Legend
- Posts: 8454
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:43 pm
- Location: Trotter Shop
Re: Kiev
Below I post a report rom Kiev from Julia Grusseva, a trade union activist, whose perspective is from an anarcho-syndicalist position. She is the translator of Victor Serge into Russian (novelist and Left opposition activist expelled from the soviet Union in 1936 and died in Mexican exile in 1948) and this is from an email circulated by Richard Greeman (American academic and translator of Serge into English - also an activist).
Dear Richard,
You ask what we think of the situation in the Ukraine. In fact, the Ukrainian movement is a part of the wave of civil protests that has been unfurling for the last few years in every corner of the world (“Arab Spring,” Occupy Wall Street, Indignados, the movements in Greece, Turkey, Russia ...). In the Ukraine, the pretext was the refusal of the President to sign the agreement on association with the countries of the European Union. In this semi-authoritarian country, a large part of the population considered that association as a step toward democracy, rights, higher social standards, etc. The positive demands of the movement are democratic (return to the 2004 Constitution, new, free, honest elections, etc): the people are fighting for their full rights. The main thing is that the movement is self-organized (autonomous) everywhere around the country, with activists occupying the town halls, etc. The same labor unions who participated in our conference in Kiev last year have recently formed the all-Ukraine strike committee.
As far as the “leading personalities” of the movement are concerned, we see the same thing as in Russia, Turkey, etc: politicians who are trying to put themselves at the head of the movement, but whom the great mass of protesters does not at all recognize as their leaders. Yes, there are various political currents in the movement, including Ukrainian nationalists (and also the Left, which is part of the “citizen sector” of the protesters), but the vast majority – as in Russia and elsewhere – are regular citizens, non-party political activists.
Kiev has already seen police violence (before the current clashes – RG ) causing dozens of injuries and several deaths (at least four); this means the movement will not stop half way and fade out. Besides, the President is inclined to give in to popular pressure (there is no doubt that Putin would have acted differently in his place!) So there is a good chance that the popular movement will triumph and, on the condition that the politicians don’t turn it to their own ends, will make the Ukraine a freer and more democratic country than it is today.
Je t’embrasse, Julia
Dear Richard,
You ask what we think of the situation in the Ukraine. In fact, the Ukrainian movement is a part of the wave of civil protests that has been unfurling for the last few years in every corner of the world (“Arab Spring,” Occupy Wall Street, Indignados, the movements in Greece, Turkey, Russia ...). In the Ukraine, the pretext was the refusal of the President to sign the agreement on association with the countries of the European Union. In this semi-authoritarian country, a large part of the population considered that association as a step toward democracy, rights, higher social standards, etc. The positive demands of the movement are democratic (return to the 2004 Constitution, new, free, honest elections, etc): the people are fighting for their full rights. The main thing is that the movement is self-organized (autonomous) everywhere around the country, with activists occupying the town halls, etc. The same labor unions who participated in our conference in Kiev last year have recently formed the all-Ukraine strike committee.
As far as the “leading personalities” of the movement are concerned, we see the same thing as in Russia, Turkey, etc: politicians who are trying to put themselves at the head of the movement, but whom the great mass of protesters does not at all recognize as their leaders. Yes, there are various political currents in the movement, including Ukrainian nationalists (and also the Left, which is part of the “citizen sector” of the protesters), but the vast majority – as in Russia and elsewhere – are regular citizens, non-party political activists.
Kiev has already seen police violence (before the current clashes – RG ) causing dozens of injuries and several deaths (at least four); this means the movement will not stop half way and fade out. Besides, the President is inclined to give in to popular pressure (there is no doubt that Putin would have acted differently in his place!) So there is a good chance that the popular movement will triumph and, on the condition that the politicians don’t turn it to their own ends, will make the Ukraine a freer and more democratic country than it is today.
Je t’embrasse, Julia
-
- Passionate
- Posts: 2449
- Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:57 pm
Re: Kiev
Democracy's fourth wave? Well considering that this one is in an apparent 'third wave' country we'll see. Maybe that tells us more about the structure of ex-Soviet countries than anything else? idk
Nero fiddles while Gordon Burns.
-
- Legend
- Posts: 8454
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:43 pm
- Location: Trotter Shop
Re: Kiev
Actually, despite trying hard, I don't understand this...KeyserSoze wrote:Democracy's fourth wave? Well considering that this one is in an apparent 'third wave' country we'll see. Maybe that tells us more about the structure of ex-Soviet countries than anything else? idk
- Lost Leopard Spot
- Immortal
- Posts: 18436
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:14 am
- Location: In the long grass, hunting for a watering hole.
-
- Immortal
- Posts: 19597
- Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:49 am
- Location: N Wales, but close enough to Chester I can pretend I'm in England
- Contact:
Re: Kiev
Strange happenings today.
It seems like the President has left the building. He's now re-appeared in an Eastern city and announced that what has happened is effectively a coup.
He goes on to say he's the elected President and ain't resigning and (scarily) he will stop at nothing to prevent bloodshed I just fear that he's effectively inviting Russian troops in to help prevent that bloodshed.
========================
Reading more there's this ...
Earlier this week the Head of the Armed Forces was replaced, again I suspect because that guy hadn't been supportive enough.
This is very untidy.
It seems like the President has left the building. He's now re-appeared in an Eastern city and announced that what has happened is effectively a coup.
He goes on to say he's the elected President and ain't resigning and (scarily) he will stop at nothing to prevent bloodshed I just fear that he's effectively inviting Russian troops in to help prevent that bloodshed.
========================
Reading more there's this ...
Reading between the lines this suggests the President wanted the troops to go in & they've declined.The heads of four Ukrainian security bodies have appeared in parliament to declare they would not take part in any conflict with the people.
They represented ;
the Paratroop unit of the military,
the "Berkut" anti-riot police,
Alfa special operations unit ..... and
Military intelligence.
Earlier this week the Head of the Armed Forces was replaced, again I suspect because that guy hadn't been supportive enough.
This is very untidy.
Not advocating mass-murder as an entirely positive experience, of course, but it had its moments.
"I understand you are a very good footballer" ... "I try".
"I understand you are a very good footballer" ... "I try".
Re: Kiev
All I know is, from talking to my Ukrainian Grandad that Ukrainians have a deep mistrust of Russia, with quite good reason historically speaking, such as the famine (or genocide depending on who you ask) and if you ever mention Communism in front of him he'll simply say 'Communists are liars!'.
- Little Green Man
- Icon
- Posts: 4471
- Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:34 pm
- Location: Justin Edinburgh
Re: Kiev
And in turn there'll be quite a few older Russians who won't forget that there were many Ukrainians who sided with the Nazis. You'd hope that kind of resentment is not something that eats away at the younger generation.Beefheart wrote:All I know is, from talking to my Ukrainian Grandad that Ukrainians have a deep mistrust of Russia, with quite good reason historically speaking, such as the famine (or genocide depending on who you ask) and if you ever mention Communism in front of him he'll simply say 'Communists are liars!'.
The ex-President is wrong to call it a coup. He's been shown the door by the parliament. That said, I suspect they only grew the necessary balls after the security forces pulled the rug from under him.
As for the future, they will have come to some sort of consitutional agreement that is satisfactory to both sides or there'll more upheaval. It's that or split the country down the middle.
-
- Immortal
- Posts: 19597
- Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:49 am
- Location: N Wales, but close enough to Chester I can pretend I'm in England
- Contact:
Re: Kiev
Not exactly a Mandela moment then !!Freed Ukrainian opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko, quoted by Interfax Ukraine at Kiev's Zhylyany airport, says all those behind the violence must be punished. She says: "We will not be worthy of the memory of the people who were killed and who opened the road for us, if we do not punish all those who deprived them of their lives, who took their lives, who beat the students, who beat our peaceful spiritual people."
Not advocating mass-murder as an entirely positive experience, of course, but it had its moments.
"I understand you are a very good footballer" ... "I try".
"I understand you are a very good footballer" ... "I try".
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 187 guests