The Politics Thread

[bobo the clown]

Just to correct the historical record - Labour was not anti - though it was split - the referendum was actually on the terms renegotiated by the Wilson government after Labour defeated Heath in 1974. Labour's official position was 'Yes' as was the Tories. In effect both parties had oppositionists who formed vociferous minorities. In the vote there was a large majority in favour nationwide = two thirds in favour.

Apologies Billy. Quite correct. My memory was wrong.

It was Wilson and Thatcher pushing for .... the left of the Labour were anti as was Len Murray's TUC.

THAT was, however, the EEC not this super state which is being foisted upon us.

[Armchair Wanderer]

How much would it have cost to print off a few million of these and post it through a few million letter boxes?

What surprises me is the ex-immigrants (who are now UK citizens) voting UKIP presumably so that immigrants don't take their jobs. I suppose it makes some kind of sense, ish.

[thebish]

I'm in bobo's camp I want trade unification without the political elite running the show for their own ends, lets face it the EU is now the Germans bastard child that one day they will struggle to control, ecconomic downturn in Germany and we'd better hope the armed forces are not too run down.

who would run a "trade unification" and how would it be different? presumably - elected politicians from the member countries? (like now)

[thebish]

Classy. Personal attacks of course always being a sure sign of somebody putting forward a convincing case .

indeed - a pretty decent yardstick...

[thebish]

personally i'm not that bothered either way whether we have a referendum or not - there are loads of issues I'd like to see fixed before huffing and puffing about the EU..

but - I DO think that referendums and perhaps even democracy are made pretty meaningless when people are not confident they have access to genuine information and answers to serious questions about the issue they are supposed to be deciding... politicians of all hues have pretty much made that an impossibility now over the issue of europe - we now live in an age where we "appear" to have more information - but we trust very little of it...

[Harry Genshaw]

Ukip are a bunch of to55ers but whichever way you look at it, they're the first party aside from the Tories or Labour to win an election here in over 100 years. A remarkable achievement. Sadly, it probably means the next general election will be fought on who demonstrates who's the toughest on immigration

[Hoboh]

personally i'm not that bothered either way whether we have a referendum or not - there are loads of issues I'd like to see fixed before huffing and puffing about the EU..

but - I DO think that referendums and perhaps even democracy are made pretty meaningless when people are not confident they have access to genuine information and answers to serious questions about the issue they are supposed to be deciding... politicians of all hues have pretty much made that an impossibility now over the issue of europe - we now live in an age where we "appear" to have more information - but we trust very little of it...

So just for you and BWFCi,

The EU’s €2.4bn propaganda budget broken down

The information comes from the EU General Budget
This €2.4bn estimate of EU propaganda spending is very conservative, calculated using only
those budget lines which explicitly indicate their use for information or campaign purposes, or
for the purposes outlined in the chapters above, such as for fostering European citizenship or
promoting a common European culture.
The estimate should be regarded as an absolute minimum amount. On the one hand, where
such spending has been included as part of many different objectives under a particularly big
budget heading, these have been disregarded for the sake of fairness.
Indeed much of the funding that goes on propaganda is hidden deep inside the EU budget,
under headings which do not suggest from their titles or descriptions that this is how the money
will be used. This goes for many of the examples given in this paper.
One, for example, is the money spent on the Diversity Truck Tour. This is funded by the
Commission’s Employment DG under the Progress programme, which isn’t included in our
calculations because the line is very broad and described as covering “expenditure on
technical and administrative assistance for the implementation of Community measures to
achieve equality between men and women and tackling the particular needs of disabled
people.” (04 01 04 10)

Theres a lot more
I would say it's nothing but a sign of total incompetence (again) on the part of the EU if after spending 2.4 billion Euros on properganda, no one understands what the feck use they are

[Hoboh]

Ukip are a bunch of to55ers but whichever way you look at it, they're the first party aside from the Tories or Labour to win an election here in over 100 years. A remarkable achievement. Sadly, it probably means the next general election will be fought on who demonstrates who's the toughest on immigration

No it won't it will be fought on who is the best to trust to run the country, run being the important word here.
Not who implements Brussels dictats most.

[Harry Genshaw]

^ you'd better hope not, or your lot will have no chance

[thebish]

personally i'm not that bothered either way whether we have a referendum or not - there are loads of issues I'd like to see fixed before huffing and puffing about the EU..

but - I DO think that referendums and perhaps even democracy are made pretty meaningless when people are not confident they have access to genuine information and answers to serious questions about the issue they are supposed to be deciding... politicians of all hues have pretty much made that an impossibility now over the issue of europe - we now live in an age where we "appear" to have more information - but we trust very little of it...

So just for you and BWFCi,

The EU’s €2.4bn propaganda budget broken down

The information comes from the EU General Budget
This €2.4bn estimate of EU propaganda spending is very conservative, calculated using only
those budget lines which explicitly indicate their use for information or campaign purposes, or
for the purposes outlined in the chapters above, such as for fostering European citizenship or
promoting a common European culture.
The estimate should be regarded as an absolute minimum amount. On the one hand, where
such spending has been included as part of many different objectives under a particularly big
budget heading, these have been disregarded for the sake of fairness.
Indeed much of the funding that goes on propaganda is hidden deep inside the EU budget,
under headings which do not suggest from their titles or descriptions that this is how the money
will be used. This goes for many of the examples given in this paper.
One, for example, is the money spent on the Diversity Truck Tour. This is funded by the
Commission’s Employment DG under the Progress programme, which isn’t included in our
calculations because the line is very broad and described as covering “expenditure on
technical and administrative assistance for the implementation of Community measures to
achieve equality between men and women and tackling the particular needs of disabled
people.” (04 01 04 10)

Theres a lot more
I would say it's nothing but a sign of total incompetence (again) on the part of the EU if after spending 2.4 billion Euros on properganda, no one understands what the feck use they are

as i said Hoboh - we have lots of information - but we don't trust that it is not skewed/spun/exaggerated/taken out of context. (at least, I don't.)

you just plastering stats with no obvious source on the internet doesn't make me any more trusting...

[Hoboh]

^ you'd better hope not, or your lot will have no chance

I doubt I will vote UKIP in a general election unless the put forward clear UK policies that they would carry through and insist on if forming part of a hung government.
That muppet Clegg showed how quick he could change colours for a bite of the power cherry, used, abused and about to be discarded, fat lot of good it did him.

If UKIP have made the other tossers sit up and look at what is going on and they come up with geniune proper policy to match and give us a referendum, their purpose is served.

[thebish]

I would say it's nothing but a sign of total incompetence (again) on the part of the EU if after spending 2.4 billion Euros on properganda, no one understands what the feck use they are

there's a longish list of ideas here, Hoboh...

http://www.whathaseuropedone.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but you will illustrate my point perfectly and dismiss the source - and thus render asking the question and having a referendum pretty pointless as nobody trusts the info they are offered.

[BWFC_Insane]

personally i'm not that bothered either way whether we have a referendum or not - there are loads of issues I'd like to see fixed before huffing and puffing about the EU..

but - I DO think that referendums and perhaps even democracy are made pretty meaningless when people are not confident they have access to genuine information and answers to serious questions about the issue they are supposed to be deciding... politicians of all hues have pretty much made that an impossibility now over the issue of europe - we now live in an age where we "appear" to have more information - but we trust very little of it...

Absolutely agreed. Which is why I think a large independently funded research project into the benefits and otherwise of being in the EU would be essential before a referendum to get a proper result that is based in evidence not just rhetoric.

I'd like the evidence presented that I can trust before I tried to vote on something like that.

[Bruce Rioja]

Not all that often that I get to say 'I agree with BWFC-I' on this thread but here's one such opportunity. One thing more concerning than people not taking up their right to vote by dint of them not knowing what they're voting for, is people that do without having any greater a grasp.

[Lord Kangana]

Europe, and the UK is no exception (sorry to break that to those with a sensitive side) is lurching to the right (a largely cyclical thing anyway). The only way that we can avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, IMVHO, is for the moderate right to hold its nerve and show some balls.

That means gentlemen like Jacob Rees Mogg need to be ignored. It was really hard not to write w*nker where I put gentleman, but it would perhaps detract a little from my point of view if I were to mention that every time I hear his f*cking irritating voice I feel the need to smash his face in. But I digress.

[Hoboh]

What has Europe done ?


Safer and Cheaper Flights
The EU has provided us with not only safer flights but also cheaper flights and increased competition between carriers registered in the Member States. Cheaper flights are the knock-on effect of a huge improvement in air traffic management and increased competition.
Nothing to do with Easy jet, Ryan Air and a host of other cheap haul carriers then? Safer? How? There was in place international conventions on Air Traffic control well before the EU.

Student Exchange Programmes
Within the last 10 years the EU has created different education programmes in order to give students the possibility to experience different national cultures and broaden their personal horizon. Up to now 1.2 million students have benefited from the ERASMUS Programme and many more are expected to experience it in the future.
Yep the type that fly in register, claim student loans then zip off back home!

The Single MarketThe Single Market is one of a kind as it guarantees ‘free movement' of people, goods, services and capital. At a practical level, it provides the possibility for EU citizens to live, work, study and do business throughout the EU, as well as enjoy a wide choice of competitively priced goods and services
Good but for the people bit.

Protection of Intellectual Property
Intellectual property deals with two areas: industrial property and copyrights. Basically, it means that you are not allowed to use somebody else's ideas, for example, if your best friend has written lyrics to a song, you can not publish it in your name. The EU's efforts in this area have resulted in laws aiming at protecting company's or individual's knowledge.
So copyrights never existed before?

PeacePeace in Europe was first created when an alliance was made between Germany and France and the European Coal and Steel Community was founded. Europe has come along way since with a lasting peace amongst its Member States. International security is now a major issue for the EU: with increasing threats to a peaceful society in different areas of the world, the EU has put in place many policies to combat such problems.
What a load of tosh! Hittler got his ass kicked that’s what brought peace in Europe along with the fall of the Berlin wall, nothing to do with the EU

The Euro
The single currency, the Euro, is now part of our everyday life but not all of its benefits are well known. From the practical advantages of travelling with a single currency, to the benefits of economic growth, to the strengthening of the EU international role and its political integration, the introduction of the euro has achieved much more than people expected.
Without the fact it almost collapsed this says it all,

strengthening of the EU international role and its political integration

Regional Funds
Unity and solidarity are some of the most significant aims for the EU. One important reason why the European regional policies have been created is because the EU is of the opinion that equal standards and rights should be provided to all citizens.
How long must these funds be paid to the peasant Eastern European countries until we start to see a return? Until they can afford to buy our goods? Until their endemic corruption is cured?

Cheaper and Better Phone calls
The liberalisation of the telecommunication markets in 1998 and the ongoing development in the field of technology have resulted in a steady decrease in prices within the EU. This means that it is cheaper to call your friends and family and choose between different operators.
Really important

Consumer Protection
NEW: Consumer protection and the safety of food in the European Union are two issues that have always gone hand in hand. The Health and Consumer Protection Directorate General's main responsibility is to provide laws and regulations on the safety of food and consumer rights.
Again never existed pre EU?

A Healthier Europe
The public health issues dealt with by the EU are numerous and cover a number of different areas. They concern both men and women, young and old. The EU has also introduced the European health insurance card that is your guarantee if you should fall ill when going abroad.
Why do you still need travel insurance then?

Environmental Protection
In the EU, environmental issues including initiatives concerning protection have been underlined as some of the most important points not only for discussion but also for action. For instance, the EU is leading the "Kyoto" drive to reduce the air pollution that causes global warming.
By adding taxes and costs to everything to please the tree huggers

Equal Opportunities - Against Discrimination
The promotion of equal opportunities and the fight against Discrimination are considered some of the most important issues within Europe and many directives have been put in place to combat inequalities that occur in the Member States. 2007 is officially the European Year of Equal Opportunities for All. Additionally the "Roadmap for equality between women and men 2006-2010" was launched outlining 6 priority areas for EU action on gender equality.
Was already in place

External Trade
External trade for Europe has always been very important to the success of the European Union. In recent years our level of trade has increased and we are continuing to grow as major players in the world of trade. Today, the EU accounts for 20% of global imports and exports and is now the world's biggest trader.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... drawal.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Worthy4England]

1) go look at the deregulation bill. I'm not hopeful but you might understand.

2) Not true. ERASMUS stoodies are in the host country for 3 months to one year. They don't qualify for Student Loans

3) I thought you wanted to go live in France?

4) They did. Time's moved on see DMCA etc for further information. See also Unitary Patent. If you want you could do a UKIP style calculation of the savings of 1 patent vs one in each Country.

I lost interest in your randomly spouted bollocks at this point...

[Lord Kangana]

This collapse of the Euro.

Please someone explain why our own currency has consistently weakened against it over the course of the last decade, if, as is taken as read by certain (generally right wing carpet munching buffoons who still talk like its the 8th of May 1945) it is ( I believe this is another one) a "basket case"?

Lets be clear here, the pound has almost halved in value against it since its inception.

[Lord Kangana]

I asked a question which I thought I knew the answer to. And was rather surprised to find this:



If I read this rightly, if we were to join the euro tomorrow, we would make the position worse, not better. Perhaps UKip have an altruistic streak after all. Wouldn't want to upset those fiscally responsible cousins of ours (distant cousins, naturally) across the channel (The English Channel I'll have you know).

[BWFC_Insane]

Cheaper and Better Phone calls
The liberalisation of the telecommunication markets in 1998 and the ongoing development in the field of technology have resulted in a steady decrease in prices within the EU. This means that it is cheaper to call your friends and family and choose between different operators.
Really important


A Healthier Europe
The public health issues dealt with by the EU are numerous and cover a number of different areas. They concern both men and women, young and old. The EU has also introduced the European health insurance card that is your guarantee if you should fall ill when going abroad.
Why do you still need travel insurance then?

There is a lot here but wanted to discuss these two.

The cheaper calls isn't a small deal. It is quite a large one and recently broke the big mobile phone companies ability to charge ridiculous prices when abroad. One might ask though if the EU is irrelevant and everything would happen without it existing, why when I was in Mexico was I charged an absolute fortune for the two calls I had to make?

If the EU is redundant and all the deals are just as easy without it, why are foreign phone calls only cheap within the EU and not everywhere?

Secondly travel insurance. You do realise that travel insurance covers you for far more than emergency healthcare? Emergency transport back home for example. My friend had a skiing accident once and damaged her knee. The cost of getting back home ran into the thousands and the tens of thousands. It also covers things such as cancellations, delays, illness preventing you from going on holiday etc etc.