The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

Don't start about CAP I'm old enough to remember the butter and grain mountins, farmers are still pouring milk away because of EU quotas, fish, dead, are still being thrown back in the sea because of EU quotas, yet half the world is starving
Please stop trying to say the EU is not impacting on everyday life with a negative influence

But you've said it is, and worthy asked you how. You've been asked how and haven't actually come up with one convincing argument to suggest that the EU is impacting negatively on people's daily lives.

Lorries? Really? EU quotas? How many people does that impact on? Were the starving people in the world not starving prior to the EU's existence?

If you say that it is obvious what the negative impact of the EU is on someone's everyday life you should tell us. On a day to day basis I don't think about the EU. It doesn't even come into my mind. But apparently there is an obvious negative impact that I'm seemingly unaware of. You should having stated that is the case tell me what it actually is......

[Worthy4England]

Point being, nor was the link bish posted independent either.
It is easier to make the anti EU point than any Pro one, the anti you can see before your eyes and everyday, Pro? where? I supose folk believe in God, the invisible man and a host of other things.

Of course it's easier - that's why a muppet like Farage is garnering support. But as BWFCi says - what we'll need to move from prior to a referendum, is facts rather than sound bites. So whoever suggests there's a benefit to the UK people should need to quantify that benefit, rather than saying it's 4k per person (or whatever was the figure mentioned). Those who say it's a cost need a better articulation than 70% is a punt based on volume of legislation passed and 20% is another punt based on a static baseline relating to CAP and CFP.

What can I see before my eyes that's anti, every day?

Don't start about CAP I'm old enough to remember the butter and grain mountins, farmers are still pouring milk away because of EU quotas, fish, dead, are still being thrown back in the sea because of EU quotas, yet half the world is starving
Please stop trying to say the EU is not impacting on everyday life with a negative influence

I'm old enough too.

My criticism was with the calculation.

I'm still awaiting further "obvious and in-front of my eyes" examples - so far you've come up with green tax on aircraft flights that's about 25% of our own UK Government APD levy. You might want to look at how much EU Deregulation has taken out of the cost base and factor that into your thinking. But I guess two sides to the equation just isn't part of your make-up.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Point being, nor was the link bish posted independent either.
It is easier to make the anti EU point than any Pro one, the anti you can see before your eyes and everyday, Pro? where? I supose folk believe in God, the invisible man and a host of other things.

Of course it's easier - that's why a muppet like Farage is garnering support. But as BWFCi says - what we'll need to move from prior to a referendum, is facts rather than sound bites. So whoever suggests there's a benefit to the UK people should need to quantify that benefit, rather than saying it's 4k per person (or whatever was the figure mentioned). Those who say it's a cost need a better articulation than 70% is a punt based on volume of legislation passed and 20% is another punt based on a static baseline relating to CAP and CFP.

What can I see before my eyes that's anti, every day?

Don't start about CAP I'm old enough to remember the butter and grain mountins, farmers are still pouring milk away because of EU quotas, fish, dead, are still being thrown back in the sea because of EU quotas, yet half the world is starving
Please stop trying to say the EU is not impacting on everyday life with a negative influence

I'm old enough too.

My criticism was with the calculation.

I'm still awaiting further "obvious and in-front of my eyes" examples - so far you've come up with green tax on aircraft flights that's about 25% of our own UK Government APD levy. You might want to look at how much EU Deregulation has taken out of the cost base and factor that into your thinking. But I guess two sides to the equation just isn't part of your make-up.

Worthy, worthy, worthy,
You're being deliberately obtuse.
Here is a list of things that directly impact on your life because of the EU:
Old ladies freezing to death because Polish coal is cheaper than British coal.
Dirty filthy Polish miners loitering about our car boot sales (after having flogged a huge lorryload of cheap coal).
Old ladies dying in their thousands having slipped on discarded banana skins that are straighter and therefore more treacherous than usual.
Hordes of Romamian horse thieves loitering about our town squares eating bananas whilst waiting for a passing horse to nick.
No horses because they've all ended up in the sandwiches of itinerant Polish miners.

[Harry Genshaw]

Hoboh I don't think you'll find one person on here who isn't to an extent uncomfortable with some aspect of the EU. Not one. I certainly don't think anyone would suggest it is free from criticism.
.

I only wish our Politicians were as honest.

Since weekend there's been a mad scramble by the party leaders to show what's great about Europe. Not one of them seemed to want to accept the point you've raised - that many of us are uncomfortable with many aspects of Europe. By ignoring it, it only, imo, will lead to similar protest votes come the next EU elections

[BWFC_Insane]

Hoboh I don't think you'll find one person on here who isn't to an extent uncomfortable with some aspect of the EU. Not one. I certainly don't think anyone would suggest it is free from criticism.
.

I only wish our Politicians were as honest.

Since weekend there's been a mad scramble by the party leaders to show what's great about Europe. Not one of them seemed to want to accept the point you've raised - that many of us are uncomfortable with many aspects of Europe. By ignoring it, it only, imo, will lead to similar protest votes come the next EU elections

Dunno about that. Most have advocated reform in one way or another. So suggesting they're not entirely happy.

Remember politicians have a lot of different hats on. If Cameron takes too hard a line for example, it could make the deals he wants in Europe harder to accomplish. And ughhh I just realise I've stuck up for David Cameron. Time to go for a shower and an extensive bleach scrub......

[Worthy4England]

Hoboh I don't think you'll find one person on here who isn't to an extent uncomfortable with some aspect of the EU. Not one. I certainly don't think anyone would suggest it is free from criticism.
.

I only wish our Politicians were as honest.

Since weekend there's been a mad scramble by the party leaders to show what's great about Europe. Not one of them seemed to want to accept the point you've raised - that many of us are uncomfortable with many aspects of Europe. By ignoring it, it only, imo, will lead to similar protest votes come the next EU elections

Dunno about that. Most have advocated reform in one way or another. So suggesting they're not entirely happy.

Remember politicians have a lot of different hats on. If Cameron takes too hard a line for example, it could make the deals he wants in Europe harder to accomplish. And ughhh I just realise I've stuck up for David Cameron. Time to go for a shower and an extensive bleach scrub......

The problem we're going to have here is "who or what is independent" to provide the analysis.

The Eurosceptics will probably shout down anyone who makes it look like we'd stay in, as Europhiles

The Europhiles will probably shout down anyone who makes it look like we'd exit, as Eurosceptics.

I think you're right, that more information is needed, but none of the parties can agree on the information that's available today and its interpretation, so I'm not sure how we will end up much better off.

A key question for me then, to any party advocating "out" is "how much are you going to reduce my tax bill?" If, as UKIP argue, each Tax payer pays £2,500 per annum, then all the "out" parties will be able to offer that as a tax rebate to each tax payer. Let's wait and see if that's in their manifesto. They shouldn't have a problem with this, given it's "blindingly obvious" nature.

[thebish]

A key question for me then, to any party advocating "out" is "how much are you going to reduce my tax bill?" If, as UKIP argue, each Tax payer pays £2,500 per annum, then all the "out" parties will be able to offer that as a tax rebate to each tax payer. Let's wait and see if that's in their manifesto. They shouldn't have a problem with this, given it's "blindingly obvious" nature.

good point - well made!

[Worthy4England]

A key question for me then, to any party advocating "out" is "how much are you going to reduce my tax bill?" If, as UKIP argue, each Tax payer pays £2,500 per annum, then all the "out" parties will be able to offer that as a tax rebate to each tax payer. Let's wait and see if that's in their manifesto. They shouldn't have a problem with this, given it's "blindingly obvious" nature.

good point - well made!

Indeed, especially given the HMRC figures suggest that someone earning £25k per annum pays £10.36 to the EU. They also suggest that someone earning £1m pays £918 per annum.

That's going to be some great saving when it comes through. Can't wait!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... -bill.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BWFC_Insane]

Hoboh I don't think you'll find one person on here who isn't to an extent uncomfortable with some aspect of the EU. Not one. I certainly don't think anyone would suggest it is free from criticism.
.

I only wish our Politicians were as honest.

Since weekend there's been a mad scramble by the party leaders to show what's great about Europe. Not one of them seemed to want to accept the point you've raised - that many of us are uncomfortable with many aspects of Europe. By ignoring it, it only, imo, will lead to similar protest votes come the next EU elections

Dunno about that. Most have advocated reform in one way or another. So suggesting they're not entirely happy.

Remember politicians have a lot of different hats on. If Cameron takes too hard a line for example, it could make the deals he wants in Europe harder to accomplish. And ughhh I just realise I've stuck up for David Cameron. Time to go for a shower and an extensive bleach scrub......

The problem we're going to have here is "who or what is independent" to provide the analysis.

The Eurosceptics will probably shout down anyone who makes it look like we'd stay in, as Europhiles

The Europhiles will probably shout down anyone who makes it look like we'd exit, as Eurosceptics.

I think you're right, that more information is needed, but none of the parties can agree on the information that's available today and its interpretation, so I'm not sure how we will end up much better off.

But I think it needs de-politicising. That isn't trivial either.

But there is plenty of academic work in this area. What would be needed would be an independently commissioned large scale project to bring together research across a broad range of disciplines to compile a report for the public that clearly spells out the situation with facts and figures and all sources clearly reported.

It could be done in a way that it became the definitive source for such a debate. That isn't easy to achieve, but I rather think it isn't impossible.

The trouble is as you say neither side will want it, as it takes away the ability for both to present vague figures and use it to convince those who don't really need convincing either way.

Hoboh is actually an ideal example of this. He's not interested in examining evidence and making an informed decision. Indeed any evidence he doesn't like is rejected for no apparent reason yet his own slant is of course "straightforwards and obvious".

I think the majority of people in the UK are shall we say "unsure" and therefore any vote would be better off grounded on some independent fact than some half baked headlines and politicians grandstanding in some horrid TV debate.

It is a bit like the Scottish vote. The "no more Tory rule" is a compelling populist argument but as far as I see it none of the key details for what would actually happen have been explained. If I were a Scot I'd probably want to vote yes, but be very wary of doing so and could easily end up voting no. Its fine for the populist messages to be slung round but the implications of such a decision are massive and the SNP like UKIP don't seem to want to really explain how things will work, what will happen and what they effects will be.

[Worthy4England]

Well, the implications of such a decision are only massive, unless you boil them down to

1) It costs a shitload today, it won't tomorrow (let me just wave that magic stick)
2) There will be no more/much less immigrants (that'll make everything alright)
3) We will make our own laws independent of anyone else and that will be great (and therefore be equitable to all, honest, there were never any inequitable laws prior to us joining the EU)

If I was a Scot, I wouldn't vote yes until someone had explained what Central Bank we'd be using.

[Lord Kangana]

This collapse of the Euro.

Lets be clear here, the pound has almost halved in value against it since its inception.

If an inception exchange rate of 0.7074 in January 1999 and one of 0.8099 last week is halving then yes, I take your point.

http://www.freecurrencyrates.com/exchan ... R-GBP/2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though that difference is exactly the point of not being in .... outside of it a country is free to set its own interest, exchange and other fiscal measures. Inside it you can't.

Having a mortgage in Euros, I can tell you that the spot rate from day to day is neither here nor there. Its dropped from in the region of 1.80 to the pound to in the region of 1.10-parity. That its enjoying a couple of months hiatus is something that happens. It sometimes even spikes to 1.25. Rarely. The ongoing trend is a weakening of the pound against the Euro. That's utterly indisputable.

And congratulations for picking the handful of days that year when it managed to sneak up to .7. Further reading would show you that that was a part of one month. The rest of the eleven months were in the mid-to low sixites.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Surely a currency exchange rate is not an indicator of a currency's value. An exchange rate that is good for imports is bad for exports and vice versa. It all depends on what you've got to buy/sell and to whom.

[Lord Kangana]

Colloquially, the pound buys you f*ck all on the continent at the moment. If the music stopped now, I'd gain. But economics being the f*ck up that it is, I'm banking on nothing. Pun unintended but left in anyway.

[bobo the clown]

This collapse of the Euro.

Lets be clear here, the pound has almost halved in value against it since its inception.

If an inception exchange rate of 0.7074 in January 1999 and one of 0.8099 last week is halving then yes, I take your point.

http://www.freecurrencyrates.com/exchan ... R-GBP/2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though that difference is exactly the point of not being in .... outside of it a country is free to set its own interest, exchange and other fiscal measures. Inside it you can't.

Having a mortgage in Euros, I can tell you that the spot rate from day to day is neither here nor there. Its dropped from in the region of 1.80 to the pound to in the region of 1.10-parity. That its enjoying a couple of months hiatus is something that happens. It sometimes even spikes to 1.25. Rarely. The ongoing trend is a weakening of the pound against the Euro. That's utterly indisputable.

And congratulations for picking the handful of days that year when it managed to sneak up to .7. Further reading would show you that that was a part of one month. The rest of the eleven months were in the mid-to low sixites.

To be fair LK I simply took the opening day of the Euro and last week. I didn't seek out any specific date. That shows a variation of about 12% or so not the 'nearly half' you mentioned.

As exchange has a cost then yes there's a difference between the actual exchanges and the cost of an exchange. If you earn in Euro's and spend in Euro's then the issue wouldn't arise. Obviously your situation is different but I guess you took that gamble at some point ... or moved.

The main, non-personal, position I take is that being in the Euro means a Government has signed up to not being in control of its own fiscal measures whereas, having not joined the UK Government has. Doing that means more than simply making going on holiday cheaper, or not, but has a huge impact on sovereignty.

I see no-one, even Clegg, suggesting we join the Euro anytime soon.

[Worthy4England]

This collapse of the Euro.

Lets be clear here, the pound has almost halved in value against it since its inception.

If an inception exchange rate of 0.7074 in January 1999 and one of 0.8099 last week is halving then yes, I take your point.

http://www.freecurrencyrates.com/exchan ... R-GBP/2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though that difference is exactly the point of not being in .... outside of it a country is free to set its own interest, exchange and other fiscal measures. Inside it you can't.

Having a mortgage in Euros, I can tell you that the spot rate from day to day is neither here nor there. Its dropped from in the region of 1.80 to the pound to in the region of 1.10-parity. That its enjoying a couple of months hiatus is something that happens. It sometimes even spikes to 1.25. Rarely. The ongoing trend is a weakening of the pound against the Euro. That's utterly indisputable.

And congratulations for picking the handful of days that year when it managed to sneak up to .7. Further reading would show you that that was a part of one month. The rest of the eleven months were in the mid-to low sixites.

To be fair LK I simply took the opening day of the Euro and last week. I didn't seek out any specific date. That shows a variation of about 12% or so not the 'nearly half' you mentioned.

As exchange has a cost then yes there's a difference between the actual exchanges and the cost of an exchange. If you earn in Euro's and spend in Euro's then the issue wouldn't arise. Obviously your situation is different but I guess you took that gamble at some point ... or moved.

The main, non-personal, position I take is that being in the Euro means a Government has signed up to not being in control of its own fiscal measures whereas, having not joined the UK Government has. Doing that means more than simply making going on holiday cheaper, or not, but has a huge impact on sovereignty.

I see no-one, even Clegg, suggesting we join the Euro anytime soon.

I'm not particularly in favour of joining the Euro, although I could conceive in a within a set of stable economies, it could have some value, as long as they remain stable (which as we've seen, they don't).

Money is of course exchanged by business too, not just holiday travellers, and FX flux costs a lot of cash between two trading partners in period based contracts (so not just selling something as a one-off transaction). This can be significant in large contracts over lengthy periods and isn't very good for those types of Contract.

What's the huge impact on sovereignty?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Meanwhile I'm hearing the Pope and Netanyahu are arguing over which language a fictional character spoke: a bit like Cameron and Miliband arguing whether Jack Sparrow was a Capitalist or not.

[Beefheart]

The main impact on sovereignty would be the sacrifice of control over interest rates to respond to inflation or unemplyoment in your economy as the base rate is set by the ECB for Eurozone countries. You're then limited to adjusting your fiscal policy but that again is limited by EU membership (e.g minimum VAT rate allowed is 15% I think). The problem is when you have to have one interest rate for the likes of Germany and Greece with completely different economies, though Greece should never have been allowed to adopt the euro anyway.

I think this outweights the benefits of savings in transaction costs or the uncertainty you get with exchange rates. Large companies will have treasury functions that can effectively hedge against any fluctuations.

[Lord Kangana]

I'd like a referendum on how I can leave Britain. It costs way too much in taxes and the like, so I think they should grant me the right to stay put and simultaneously leave. It's only right and fair that I get my sovereignty back. Obviously I'll still need the ability to work here, as I'm not actually moving, but again, I think it's fair that the only change will be my contributions. Which will be lowered.

[Hoboh]

'Never kick a man when he's down'.

Watching Cleggs near melt down, I was lacing up my steel toe capped boots

One enemy of the country down, a few more to go.

I pray for the mindless union thugs to surface from their hiding and Harriets, strange they hid her away until after the elections.

Please, please, a back bench Tory revolt to unseat the other Clegg type smug bastards.

I hope Putin finds the Germans guilty of meddling in the Ukraine, then jobs a good 'un.

[Hoboh]

I'd like a referendum on how I can leave Britain. It costs way too much in taxes and the like, so I think they should grant me the right to stay put and simultaneously leave. It's only right and fair that I get my sovereignty back. Obviously I'll still need the ability to work here, as I'm not actually moving, but again, I think it's fair that the only change will be my contributions. Which will be lowered.

I'll drive you to the airport.