The Politics Thread

[Harry Genshaw]

And no ones given me the simple version of what it's all about yet!

Well it's like this GG.
Let us imagine you are a normal peace living woman called Helen Genshaw.
Now imagine taking a walk in two different cities, openly, looking like you are and using your name.
Let us further imagine those two cities are Tel Aviv and Gaza.
I'll invite you to do it in reality, except only an idiot would do that in Gaza.

Victims my arse.

Also, there are Arab citizens of Israel.

Plus none of the countries we see now are any more real than any other (a contention regularly thrown at Israel) all were created after 1916, not just Israel but Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia - the list goes on

But anti-Semitism runs deep...

I've no issue with someone being pro Israeli on this issue. I certainly don't agree with them but I'm old enough to know there are several viewpoints on what is a complex and emotive issue. The odd bizarre rant aside, you've always struck me as an intelligent chap Spotty but you can't believe that Palestinians aren't victims, and you surely don't believe my (& Bish's) views are motivated by anti semitism?

Quick set of figures to demonstrate why Palestinians are victims. We're hearing about the 3 Israeli lads who have been kidnapped. In the first 10 days of June, 17 Palestinian kids disappeared into Israeli ' custody.' Many of those won't see family or friends for years and will be held without trial. Almost all of them will be brutalized or tortured

[Gooner Girl]

And no ones given me the simple version of what it's all about yet!

Well it's like this GG.
Let us imagine you are a normal peace living woman called Helen Genshaw.
Now imagine taking a walk in two different cities, openly, looking like you are and using your name.
Let us further imagine those two cities are Tel Aviv and Gaza.
I'll invite you to do it in reality, except only an idiot would do that in Gaza.

Victims my arse.

Also, there are Arab citizens of Israel.

Plus none of the countries we see now are any more real than any other (a contention regularly thrown at Israel) all were created after 1916, not just Israel but Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia - the list goes on

But anti-Semitism runs deep...

I've no issue with someone being pro Israeli on this issue. I certainly don't agree with them but I'm old enough to know there are several viewpoints on what is a complex and emotive issue. The odd bizarre rant aside, you've always struck me as an intelligent chap Spotty but you can't believe that Palestinians aren't victims, and you surely don't believe my (& Bish's) views are motivated by anti semitism?

Quick set of figures to demonstrate why Palestinians are victims. We're hearing about the 3 Israeli lads who have been kidnapped. In the first 10 days of June, 17 Palestinian kids disappeared into Israeli ' custody.' Many of those won't see family or friends for years and will be held without trial. Almost all of them will be brutalized or tortured

Sorry. Didn't mean to open such a can of worms!

[LeverEnd]

Of course there are some horrible bastards in Palestine, especially with their use of human shields, but given Israeli might in the region there really is no excuse for their behaviour at times. There is also no excuse for Hamas and their acts of terror. I see where LLS is coming from though, would Palestinians behave any better towards Israel is the balance of power were reversed? I suspect not.
My point about the anti-Semitism argument is that it is trotted out far too easily by Israeli supporters to deflect criticism. I know plenty of people who are anti-Israeli policy, because of the behaviour of its government and troops, no other reason. Some of them do view it too simply though, bullies/victims, sticks & stones Vs tanks etc. Plenty of grey areas exist morally and some don't seem to want to acknowledge this.

[Lord Kangana]

would Palestinians behave any better towards Israel is the balance of power were reversed? I suspect not.
s.

That is a piss poor line of reasoning. There was that drama in the 60's about black police officers discriminating against white suspects that no-one got for preciseley the same reasoning.

[Burnden Paddock]

I love the BBC, what it stands for and what it represents but its coverage of the Israel -Palestinian conflict is really starting to grate. Witness the coverage of the awful kidnapping of 3 Israeli youths. Quite right that things like this should be covered until you wonder why the deaths of 2 children earlier in the week received no coverage from them whatsoever. That's right they were Palestinian children. 2 more slaughtered by the IDF with the usual impunity offered to the perpetrators

The media are usually quick to jump on any sweeping anti Israeli sentiment when it's a Palestinian mp or a supporter like Ahmedinejad. Not found any mention in the mainstream media today about the Israeli mp who has demanded that a Palestinian is hung for everyday the youths are missing

I actually know very little about this to my shame. So are the Palestinians the goodies and the Israelis the baddies or is it not as clear cut as that?

You're right, it's certainly not as clear cut as that. Fair to say though, imo, that the Palestinians are by far the greater victims in the whole conflict

Oh course they are! How silly of me...

See? I knew that this would happen. It'll never be fixed. It certainly won't ever be fixed on here either so perhaps it's best if we draw a line under it here and acknowledge that it'll never be fixed - least of all on here.

This!!!! It was patently obvious beforehand and even moreso now.

[LeverEnd]

would Palestinians behave any better towards Israel is the balance of power were reversed? I suspect not.
s.

That is a piss poor line of reasoning. There was that drama in the 60's about black police officers discriminating against white suspects that no-one got for preciseley the same reasoning.

I suppose it is really. Just making the point that Palestinians would wipe Israel and it's people off the map if they got the chance. The fact that they aren't all the peace-loving innocents that some would make out obviously doesn't excuse the oppression and brutalisation of those that are.

[BWFC_Insane]

And no ones given me the simple version of what it's all about yet!

Well it's like this GG.
Let us imagine you are a normal peace living woman called Helen Genshaw.
Now imagine taking a walk in two different cities, openly, looking like you are and using your name.
Let us further imagine those two cities are Tel Aviv and Gaza.
I'll invite you to do it in reality, except only an idiot would do that in Gaza.

Victims my arse.

Also, there are Arab citizens of Israel.

Plus none of the countries we see now are any more real than any other (a contention regularly thrown at Israel) all were created after 1916, not just Israel but Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia - the list goes on

But anti-Semitism runs deep...

This has to be one of the most one-eyed views ever expressed on this forum. The discussion had been sensible and grounded until this. Horrid.

[William the White]

And no ones given me the simple version of what it's all about yet!

Well it's like this GG.
Let us imagine you are a normal peace living woman called Helen Genshaw.
Now imagine taking a walk in two different cities, openly, looking like you are and using your name.
Let us further imagine those two cities are Tel Aviv and Gaza.
I'll invite you to do it in reality, except only an idiot would do that in Gaza.

Victims my arse.

Also, there are Arab citizens of Israel.

Plus none of the countries we see now are any more real than any other (a contention regularly thrown at Israel) all were created after 1916, not just Israel but Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia - the list goes on

But anti-Semitism runs deep...

Just to say that my son and his (female) partner did precisely that last year. They were there for a week. He was lecturing and running workshops at a couple of Gaza universities, she keeping him company. Neither are idiots.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

You're right, it's certainly not as clear cut as that. Fair to say though, imo, that the Palestinians are by far the greater victims in the whole conflict

Oh course they are! How silly of me...

You disagree?

I believe I answered a straightforward Yes to this. Check it out bishbaby! I did.
Therefore my contention is, even though you wrongly, and probably deliberately, state otherwise in a post above. I did. State that and that only! It's complete bollicks that Palestinians are more innocent than Israelis.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

And no ones given me the simple version of what it's all about yet!

Well it's like this GG.
Let us imagine you are a normal peace living woman called Helen Genshaw.
Now imagine taking a walk in two different cities, openly, looking like you are and using your name.
Let us further imagine those two cities are Tel Aviv and Gaza.
I'll invite you to do it in reality, except only an idiot would do that in Gaza.

Victims my arse.

Also, there are Arab citizens of Israel.

Plus none of the countries we see now are any more real than any other (a contention regularly thrown at Israel) all were created after 1916, not just Israel but Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia - the list goes on

But anti-Semitism runs deep...

LLS'S COMMENTS DELETED. PERSONAL ABUSE AND TOTALLY UNWARRANTED. ZULU.

[LeverEnd]

Just to lighten the mood. Lovely sentiment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27926420

[Little Green Man]

Just to lighten the mood. Lovely sentiment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27926420

I wonder what Tawny Blair makes of it all.

[thebish]

Just to lighten the mood. Lovely sentiment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27926420

I wonder what Tawny Blair makes of it all.

^ bravo!!

[thebish]

meanwhile...

Radical Muslim preacher Abu Qatada has been found not guilty of terrorism offences by a court in Jordan, over an alleged plot in 1998.

A panel of civilian judges sitting at the State Security Court in Amman cleared him of conspiracy to carry out terrorist acts.

Abu Qatada was deported from the UK in July 2013. A verdict on another alleged plot was adjourned until September.

[thebish]

I guess now that Cameron has really shown the extent of his influence and alliance-building skillz in Europe, we can be confident about him successfully renegotiating the treaty in the UK's favour... (NOT)

[Hoboh]

I guess now that Cameron has really shown the extent of his influence and alliance-building skillz in Europe, we can be confident about him successfully renegotiating the treaty in the UK's favour... (NOT)

Maggie would never have let Merkel and her muckers get away with this.
Camoron is a weak, talks the talk, cannot do the walk, waste of space, an Obama clone, subservient to who ever is pulling his strings and working his mouth.
The new breed of young politicos, Clegg and Milliband also fit this group to a tee.

[Bruce Rioja]

I haven't really been keeping up to speed with this at all, so can one of you let me know what exactly Cameron's beef is with Juncker leading the EC ?

[Harry Genshaw]

I haven't really been keeping up to speed with this at all, so can one of you let me know what exactly Cameron's beef is with Juncker leading the EC ?

Cameron is arguing that the recent euro votes showed the electorate wanted reform of the EU. Juncker is viewed as part of the status quo. Re Hoboh's point - Cameron has argued that he couldn't 'do a Maggie' because successive treaties did away with the veto.

[Bruce Rioja]

Thanks, Harry. I had a hunch that that's what it's about.

I'm further informed that Juncker likes a scoop. Good lad.

[Hoboh]

I haven't really been keeping up to speed with this at all, so can one of you let me know what exactly Cameron's beef is with Juncker leading the EC ?

Cameron is arguing that the recent euro votes showed the electorate wanted reform of the EU. Juncker is viewed as part of the status quo. Re Hoboh's point - Cameron has argued that he couldn't 'do a Maggie' because successive treaties did away with the veto.

You don't need a veto Harry, all you do is play hard ball in other areas that affect the running of the show.