The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem with it for me is that suddenly the government decided everyone (or at least lots more) should go to Uni. This obviously got expensive. Everyone was sold the idea that to get on in life you needed a degree. The result being lots of people doing either pointless degrees, or were mediocre candidates for Uni anyway. Lots of people with degrees came into a job market not necessarily needing them. IMO it would have been better to focus on getting more people doing useful vocational courses rather than getting a degree so you can be a trainee manager at Tesco.

Well yes but at the same time they were trying to raise aspirations and improve social mobility so increasing the accesibility of higher education was one of the ways to do that.

One might argue it should be restricted to the academic elite but again that depends where you draw the line. The trouble has been that the graduate market initially absorbed all these shiny new students into its greedy and grubby little arms. But of course over time the openings started to dry up as the inevitable year on year procession churned out more and more and the market shrank due to the recession.

I agree that a better solution would be to offer a more rounded set of qualifications but the society and economy in the UK doesn't value vocational qualifications in the way that say Germany does, hence the push towards University degrees.

It is a huge sea-change to start respecting and valuing those other qualifications on an equal footing and I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Well yes but at the same time they were trying to raise aspirations and improve social mobility so increasing the accesibility of higher education was one of the ways to do that.

Which goes to show not-fit-for-purpose our politicians are. Degrees don't improve social mobility. Nearly everyone I used to interview for entry level jobs had degrees. Those same entry level jobs used to be filled with school leavers, who incidentally did a much better job as a general rule than the degree toting socially mobile candidates. All that the government managed was to raise expectations without checking to see if there would be any jobs to match the aspiration.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well yes but at the same time they were trying to raise aspirations and improve social mobility so increasing the accesibility of higher education was one of the ways to do that.

Which goes to show not-fit-for-purpose our politicians are. Degrees don't improve social mobility. Nearly everyone I used to interview for entry level jobs had degrees. Those same entry level jobs used to be filled with school leavers, who incidentally did a much better job as a general rule than the degree toting socially mobile candidates. All that the government managed was to raise expectations without checking to see if there would be any jobs to match the aspiration.

I agree. Although as someone has said to me on here before, the purpose of education is more than just filling holes in the economy. Social mobility is probably a bad term to use but I guess you had more people from poor and deprived backgrounds going to University. Which you might not think ultimately a good thing it depends on your perspective.

I've seen similar things to you, but I don't think that the answer is necessarily only let the top 10% in, but perhaps to think about what is being delivered and how. I still think that broadly University is a better foundation for life than coming straight out of school and into a job in a lot of cases. That doesn't mean that all those going now benefit. But as you say we really need to broaden out offerings and ensure that people get the development that will best benefit them rather than the current "everyone who can hold a pencil to University the rest on the scrap heap or maybe an NVQ if they can manage not to drool for more than 5 seconds".

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Well yes but at the same time they were trying to raise aspirations and improve social mobility so increasing the accesibility of higher education was one of the ways to do that.

Which goes to show not-fit-for-purpose our politicians are. Degrees don't improve social mobility. Nearly everyone I used to interview for entry level jobs had degrees. Those same entry level jobs used to be filled with school leavers, who incidentally did a much better job as a general rule than the degree toting socially mobile candidates. All that the government managed was to raise expectations without checking to see if there would be any jobs to match the aspiration.

I agree. Although as someone has said to me on here before, the purpose of education is more than just filling holes in the economy. Social mobility is probably a bad term to use but I guess you had more people from poor and deprived backgrounds going to University. Which you might not think ultimately a good thing it depends on your perspective.

I've seen similar things to you, but I don't think that the answer is necessarily only let the top 10% in, but perhaps to think about what is being delivered and how. I still think that broadly University is a better foundation for life than coming straight out of school and into a job in a lot of cases. That doesn't mean that all those going now benefit. But as you say we really need to broaden out offerings and ensure that people get the development that will best benefit them rather than the current "everyone who can hold a pencil to University the rest on the scrap heap or maybe an NVQ if they can manage not to drool for more than 5 seconds".

Indeed. I think there should be a wide variety of options available based on ability and aspiration. From my experience, a large number of people with and without degrees don't have the skills that I am looking for. If the focus was away from degrees and on providing practical skills then the country would be able to compete better than it currently does.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I spoke to a financial advisor the other day. Out of interest, I asked her whether University fee debt would be taken into account when applying for, amongst other things, a mortgage, as Vince Cable had promised it wouldn't be. She said, and I quote directly "Of course it will, the first cases have already appeared". We are building an economy on debt, debt and more debt. Its f*cking idiotic. It'll all end (again) in tears.

If that money is going to pay off loans rather than inflate the asset bubble, that sounds like a good thing.

I really don't see what the revelation is here at all - as Pru said, we also knew it would count as 'committed expenditure' rather than 'credit'.

[William the White]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bruce Rioja]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did you contribute owt to the Hamas rockets fund?

I, for one, won't be taking sides here.

[Prufrock]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm keen to give but (as no doubt you were) equally keen to ensure none of it is going to Hamas. How sure are you Bill? And how?

[William the White]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm keen to give but (as no doubt you were) equally keen to ensure none of it is going to Hamas. How sure are you Bill? And how?

Go on the website, Pru, and make your mind up. I've known of this charity for a good while. It predates Hamas by more than 20 years - it was founded in 1984, in Britain, to help victims of the Sabra and Chatila massacre. its past presidents include Chris Patten and Baronees Morris of Bolton - Tories both.

I chose it because it deals exclusively with medical aid.

Here's wiki's take on it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Ai ... lestinians" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any implication that I would support Hamas is absurdly ill founded...

The humanitarian crisis is what I'm attempting to ease in the tiny way that I can.

[William the White]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did you contribute owt to the Hamas rockets fund?

I, for one, won't be taking sides here.

No - and i don't have the faintest idea where that question comes from.

[Bruce Rioja]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did you contribute owt to the Hamas rockets fund?

I, for one, won't be taking sides here.

No - and i don't have the faintest idea where that question comes from.

OK. How sure are you that none of your contribution has found it's way into the Hamas rocket fund?

[William the White]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did you contribute owt to the Hamas rockets fund?

I, for one, won't be taking sides here.

No - and i don't have the faintest idea where that question comes from.

OK. How sure are you that none of your contribution has found it's way into the Hamas rocket fund?

Bruce - just look at the charity I used - read the wiki article posted above.

Then tell me why you think any of my money might have funded Hamas rockets.

and maybe you can also tell me what you suspect me of - bad faith or stupidity? Or being a moslem fundamentalist militant.

[Bruce Rioja]

The news from Gaza gets more horrifying.

I just made a donation to the Gaza appeal of Medical Aid for Palestinians (a long-established charity).

If others wish to do the same: http://www.map-uk.org/home/homepage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did you contribute owt to the Hamas rockets fund?

I, for one, won't be taking sides here.

No - and i don't have the faintest idea where that question comes from.

OK. How sure are you that none of your contribution has found it's way into the Hamas rocket fund?

Bruce - just look at the charity I used - read the wiki article posted above.

Then tell me why you think any of my money might have funded Hamas rockets.

and maybe you can also tell me what you suspect me of - bad faith or stupidity? Or being a moslem fundamentalist militant.

Where've I done any of that? Here's a back at you.




But please - assure me that none of your contribution is funding Hamas rockets. Wilipedia simply won't do.

[William the White]

The implication is clear in your questions.

I reckon.

I donate to a long-established medical charity you immediately ask me - twice - about donating to Hamas rockets, and if I'm sure I didn't.

Did you think I might have? Why?

[Harry Genshaw]

It does raise the interesting question of where our money truly goes. I, for one, will be more determined than ever, that none of my hard earned ever goes into the coffers of a nation that has killed over 1000 civilians in the last month.

The Hamas rocket attacks are hard to defend. In the same time they've killed 2 innocent Israeli people. Truly terrible but no more than a red herring in this debate imo

[Prufrock]

It does raise the interesting question of where our money truly goes. I, for one, will be more determined than ever, that none of my hard earned ever goes into the coffers of a nation that has killed over 1000 civilians in the last month.

The Hamas rocket attacks are hard to defend. In the same time they've killed 2 innocent Israeli people. Truly terrible but no more than a red herring in this debate imo

Not really. It seems pretty clear that Hamas' aim is the deaths of Palestinians. They know they can't get any Israelis, but they also know how Israel will respond and that will lead to international pressure. I don't doubt Israel were looking for an excuse, but Hamas have given it them, and willingly, so they don't get to avoid their hefty share of the blame, or have their contribution dismissed as a side issue.

Will sorry, back from hospital and a GA today so not with it! First time, feel ace but daaazed. Will have a proper look tomorrow. I have no doubts you wouldn't deliberately give money to Hamas!! Just concerned as to how much we know where it's going once it gets there.

[William the White]

It does raise the interesting question of where our money truly goes. I, for one, will be more determined than ever, that none of my hard earned ever goes into the coffers of a nation that has killed over 1000 civilians in the last month.

The Hamas rocket attacks are hard to defend. In the same time they've killed 2 innocent Israeli people. Truly terrible but no more than a red herring in this debate imo

Not really. It seems pretty clear that Hamas' aim is the deaths of Palestinians. They know they can't get any Israelis, but they also know how Israel will respond and that will lead to international pressure. I don't doubt Israel were looking for an excuse, but Hamas have given it them, and willingly, so they don't get to avoid their hefty share of the blame, or have their contribution dismissed as a side issue.

Will sorry, back from hospital and a GA today so not with it! First time, feel ace but daaazed. Will have a proper look tomorrow. I have no doubts you wouldn't deliberately give money to Hamas!! Just concerned as to how much we know where it's going once it gets there.

You are obviously feeling woozy, so i won't take this one up. Get well!

[William the White]

The Board of Trustees of Medical Aid for Palestinians...

http://www.map-uk.org/who-we-are/who-we-are" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No funders of Hamas rockets here...

[thebish]

for anyone interested - here's the NGO Monitor entry for MAP UK..

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/medi ... nians_map_

[William the White]

for anyone interested - here's the NGO Monitor entry for MAP UK..

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/medi ... nians_map_

Interesting - what is the provenance of 'NGO Monitor'?