The Politics Thread

[thebish]

If the choice on the one hand is real Tories, not Tory-lite, but unleash markets everywhere, roll back the state and the safety net, let people hunt foxes and all that shit versus Tory-lites who don't know the words to The Internationale but make things less shit, well yes I'm for the second one. That might not be the choice you want but it is a choice, and it's a choice with a right answer that matters.

I don't trust burnham or kendall or the other woman to

a) get Labour elected
b) even if they did - make anything measurably less shit...

so - given we have these four - Corbyn for me. I'd like to vote for someone I can actually agree with for once.

(nor do I share the general consensus that a swing to the left is an obvious disaster for Labour...)

I think you are overestimating the difference Blair made to ordinary folk... new labour spin....

[Hoboh]

If the choice on the one hand is real Tories, not Tory-lite, but unleash markets everywhere, roll back the state and the safety net, let people hunt foxes and all that shit versus Tory-lites who don't know the words to The Internationale but make things less shit, well yes I'm for the second one. That might not be the choice you want but it is a choice, and it's a choice with a right answer that matters.

I don't trust burnham or kendall or the other woman to

a) get Labour elected
b) even if they did - make anything measurably less shit...

so - given we have these four - Corbyn for me. I'd like to vote for someone I can actually agree with for once.

(nor do I share the general consensus that a swing to the left is an obvious disaster for Labour...)

I think you are overestimating the difference Blair made to ordinary folk... new labour spin....

More or less bob on bish man.
Corbyn would have to move on odd issues of the more extremist left but his two biggest problems I see are,
1, He's too old
2, he's too feckin' scruffy!

[Bijou Bob]

Michael Foot lite.

[bobo the clown]

... & he's called Jeremy.

Better than Tristram but no sort of name for a Labour politician.

[Little Green Man]

... & he's called Jeremy.

Better than Tristram but no sort of name for a Labour politician.

If he wins he'd be well advised to change his name.

Jeremy Clarkson has a certain ring to it and would help to hoover up the UKIP vote.

[Little Green Man]

Labour didn't lose because they were too left wing, they lost because they had wazzock in charge of them and a complete knob that would have been in charge of the economy. That and they didn't stand up against the lies propagated by the Tories and their media chums.

All that and Labour failing to notice that their party in Scotland were well on the way to becoming a busted flush.

[thebish]

Michael Foot lite.

nahh - he's a lot more media-friendly than Michael Foot... not that this is saying much!

Michael Foot came across to the public as:

1) a shambling scruff
2) to those who might see past that - distantly intellectual

Corbyn is scruffy - but we live in an age where corporate-shiney is less trusted than it used to be
but Corbyn DOES have summat of the common touch - which is not to be underestimated

still - not enough for him to unite the Labour Party and win a election!

thing is - the tories will have to choose a new leader before the next election - I can't see that many ace candidates with the common touch from this distance... Osborne?? May??? not universally popular, either of them - even in their own party...

[Little Green Man]

Corbyn is scruffy - but we live in an age where corporate-shiney is less trusted than it used to be

Really? Apparently we can't trust someone who scruffily eats a bacon sandwich.

Anyway if he wins we could have the prospect of a scruff-off with Boris, if the Labour party is still going and Boris survives the knivings from Osborne and May.

[thebish]

Corbyn is scruffy - but we live in an age where corporate-shiney is less trusted than it used to be

Really? Apparently we can't trust someone who scruffily eats a bacon sandwich.

Anyway if he wins we could have the prospect of a scruff-off with Boris, if the Labour party is still going and Boris survives the knivings from Osborne and May.

oh ay - I forgot about Boris! He'll have to take the plunge and become an MP first in a suitable safe seat somewhere, presumably...

that'll be interesting!

[bobo the clown]

Corbyn is scruffy - but we live in an age where corporate-shiney is less trusted than it used to be

Really? Apparently we can't trust someone who scruffily eats a bacon sandwich.

Anyway if he wins we could have the prospect of a scruff-off with Boris, if the Labour party is still going and Boris survives the knivings from Osborne and May.

oh ay - I forgot about Boris! He'll have to take the plunge and become an MP first in a suitable safe seat somewhere, presumably...
that'll be interesting!

⬅⬅⬅ eh ???

[Little Green Man]

Corbyn is scruffy - but we live in an age where corporate-shiney is less trusted than it used to be

Really? Apparently we can't trust someone who scruffily eats a bacon sandwich.

Anyway if he wins we could have the prospect of a scruff-off with Boris, if the Labour party is still going and Boris survives the knivings from Osborne and May.

oh ay - I forgot about Boris! He'll have to take the plunge and become an MP first in a suitable safe seat somewhere, presumably...

that'll be interesting!

He is an MP - for Uxbridge and South Ruislip.

[thebish]

Corbyn is scruffy - but we live in an age where corporate-shiney is less trusted than it used to be

Really? Apparently we can't trust someone who scruffily eats a bacon sandwich.

Anyway if he wins we could have the prospect of a scruff-off with Boris, if the Labour party is still going and Boris survives the knivings from Osborne and May.

oh ay - I forgot about Boris! He'll have to take the plunge and become an MP first in a suitable safe seat somewhere, presumably...

that'll be interesting!

He is an MP - for Uxbridge and South Ruislip.

oh bollox - I forgot he decided he could do two full time jobs at once! I must take more interest in these tories and keep up!

guardian - so obv. pinch of salt - but even with a pinch of salt it looks like May and Osborne may not be losing sleep just yet!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-pm-tory

[Prufrock]

[
I think you are overestimating the difference Blair made to ordinary folk... new labour spin....

Then:

"you are either deranged or an opposition purist of no more use to a person living in poverty than the complete works of Karl Marx bound in leather"

The last five years have been a f*cking disaster. We have an NHS on the verge of mutiny, a legal system barely worthy of the name, a despicable number of disabled people committing suicide because of their privatised reassessments. Now a generation of kids with no EMA and no uni maintenance grants. That didn't happen under new labour. Electing Corbyn gives the Tories a freebie on Europe and consigns another generation to austerity. But we'll have voted for what we believe in. Fab.

[Bijou Bob]

On the other hand, we could have had 5 more years of Labour and been able to draw £60 a day from cash machines for the past year, unemployment oozing over the 3 million mark, uncontrolled immigration, the continual growth of a benefit culture and a further growth in child poverty. The last 5 years has been no picnic, but it could have been far, far worse.

[thebish]

[
I think you are overestimating the difference Blair made to ordinary folk... new labour spin....

Then:

"you are either deranged or an opposition purist of no more use to a person living in poverty than the complete works of Karl Marx bound in leather"

The last five years have been a f*cking disaster. We have an NHS on the verge of mutiny, a legal system barely worthy of the name, a despicable number of disabled people committing suicide because of their privatised reassessments. Now a generation of kids with no EMA and no uni maintenance grants. That didn't happen under new labour.

YES IT FECKING DID!!! most of what you list - 100% New Labour!!!

did not non-lefty new labour BEGIN the franchising off of NHS contracts to private firms? Market structures, foundation trusts, GP consortia and the introduction of private corporations into commissioning - all flagship New Labour ideas... (not to mention PPPs!) hint: Alan Milburn

did not non-lefty new labour BEGIN the whole student loan shizzle? (hint: David Blunkett)

did not non-lefty new labour introduce the Work Capacity Assessment and contract it out to the PRIVATE firm - ATOS? yet another new labour flagship idea gleefully embraced by the tories...

yes - the last five years have been a disaster - and the next five will be even worse - but not because of Corbyn - he opposed all of the groundwork Blair and Co. laid for the Tories to do their worst... and was called a looney for his troubles... he had to defy Blair's whips to oppose those things...

now you want more Blair?

[bobo the clown]

On the other hand, we could have had 5 more years of Labour and been able to draw £60 a day from cash machines for the past year, unemployment oozing over the 3 million mark, uncontrolled immigration, the continual growth of a benefit culture and a further growth in child poverty. The last 5 years has been no picnic, but it could have been far, far worse.

... added to which 5 oncoming years led by a man it appears no-one rated and even his erstwhile (Shadow) Cabinet members now say they didn't believe in and now claim they thought his policies were bullshit. Not that this stopped them following him at the time.

Isn't THAT uplifting ??

[thebish]

On the other hand, we could have had 5 more years of Labour and been able to draw £60 a day from cash machines for the past year, unemployment oozing over the 3 million mark, uncontrolled immigration, the continual growth of a benefit culture and a further growth in child poverty. The last 5 years has been no picnic, but it could have been far, far worse.

thank goodness immigration is all under control now!

child poverty?

according to the Child Poverty Action Group:

Child poverty reduced dramatically between 1998/9-2011/12 when 1.1 million children were lifted out of poverty (BHC). This reduction is credited in large part to measures that increased the levels of lone parents working, as well as real and often significant increases in the level of benefits paid to families with children.

Under current government policies, child poverty is projected to rise from 2012/13 with an expected 600,000 more children living in poverty by 2015/16. This upward trend is expected to continue with 4.7 million children projected to be living in poverty by 2020.

the welfare bill?

2010: £110.7billion (labour)
2014: £112.1billion (tory/libdem)

[Beefheart]

On the other hand, we could have had 5 more years of Labour and been able to draw £60 a day from cash machines for the past year, unemployment oozing over the 3 million mark, uncontrolled immigration, the continual growth of a benefit culture and a further growth in child poverty. The last 5 years has been no picnic, but it could have been far, far worse.

thank goodness immigration is all under control now!

child poverty?

according to the Child Poverty Action Group:

Child poverty reduced dramatically between 1998/9-2011/12 when 1.1 million children were lifted out of poverty (BHC). This reduction is credited in large part to measures that increased the levels of lone parents working, as well as real and often significant increases in the level of benefits paid to families with children.

Under current government policies, child poverty is projected to rise from 2012/13 with an expected 600,000 more children living in poverty by 2015/16. This upward trend is expected to continue with 4.7 million children projected to be living in poverty by 2020.

the welfare bill?

2010: £110.7billion (labour)
2014: £112.1billion (tory/libdem)

Nominal or real terms?

[thebish]

Nominal or real terms?

nominal terms.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_we ... ng_40.html

[Prufrock]

[
I think you are overestimating the difference Blair made to ordinary folk... new labour spin....

Then:

"you are either deranged or an opposition purist of no more use to a person living in poverty than the complete works of Karl Marx bound in leather"

The last five years have been a f*cking disaster. We have an NHS on the verge of mutiny, a legal system barely worthy of the name, a despicable number of disabled people committing suicide because of their privatised reassessments. Now a generation of kids with no EMA and no uni maintenance grants. That didn't happen under new labour.

YES IT FECKING DID!!! most of what you list - 100% New Labour!!!

did not non-lefty new labour BEGIN the franchising off of NHS contracts to private firms? Market structures, foundation trusts, GP consortia and the introduction of private corporations into commissioning - all flagship New Labour ideas... (not to mention PPPs!) hint: Alan Milburn

did not non-lefty new labour BEGIN the whole student loan shizzle? (hint: David Blunkett)

did not non-lefty new labour introduce the Work Capacity Assessment and contract it out to the PRIVATE firm - ATOS? yet another new labour flagship idea gleefully embraced by the tories...

yes - the last five years have been a disaster - and the next five will be even worse - but not because of Corbyn - he opposed all of the groundwork Blair and Co. laid for the Tories to do their worst... and was called a looney for his troubles... he had to defy Blair's whips to oppose those things...

now you want more Blair?

Privatisation is an important issue, and one that I think New Labour was sometimes on the wrong side of but it isn't the cause of the problems I mentioned. Cuts in funding are.

NHS doctors aren't on the brink of mutiny because NHS contracts have been franchised off, but because they're being asked to work for free, to fix problems that they can't fix. Consultants expected to work weekends to fight delays that aren't caused by a consultant not being there but by tests not having been done. Tests that cost money.

The legal system is on the verge of collapse not because anything has been privatised, but because funding has been cut. Criminal solicitors are on strike because they're being asked to work for free.

I was against student loans because I think they're unfair, but they don't affect students until they're earning. Taking away EMA took money away from poor college students when they are poor. Taking away Uni maintenance grants does the same the university students. Those are cuts that stop people going to uni because they can't afford to do it.They're taking money away now.

Labour did bring in the Work Capacity Assesment, but they didn't make it an ideological mission based on a priori reasoning that everyone on disability IS in fact a scrounger. The Tories massively expanded it and put thousands of people through unnecessary stress with over a third of appeals against decisions successful.

New Labour were too right-wing for me, but not everyone right-wing of me is a Tory. If you were a poor student, or you needed a job, or you got ill, or you needed legal assistance, things were better under New Labour than they have been for the last five years. If you don't think that's true, you're mad!