The Politics Thread

[thebish]

the next tory leader is, of course, up for grabs... osborne, may, boris - and a bout of tory infighting to accompany it...

[Bruce Rioja]

the next tory leader is, of course, up for grabs... osborne, may, boris - and a bout of tory infighting to accompany it...

Dear me. Indeed. It's not looking good, whichever side of the fence we sit. Unless, of course, Daniel Hannan puts himself forward - then we're all saved

[bobo the clown]

the next tory leader is, of course, up for grabs... osborne, may, boris - and a bout of tory infighting to accompany it...

Dear me. Indeed. It's not looking good, whichever side of the fence we sit. Unless, of course, Daniel Hannan puts himself forward - then we're all saved

Keir Hardy .... or Niger Starmer-Smith or something. That's what's needed.

[freeindeed]

I fear you are making the mistake Labour made during the last election campaign. Getting caught up in an online bubble of socialism that sadly (and regrettably) no longer exists in real numbers amongst our society. I think you're asking for huge events to trigger a move en masse from austerity and right of centre to a position on the left that has widely been discredited (in terms of a media driven debate and public mindshare) for nearly 4 decades now. There is a very, very different thing between you and I and others who have an interest in politics discussing the possibility of mobilisation of disenfranchised voters and the voting public at large.

You seem to have the idea that public opinion and political discourse is fixed. Look at history - things change dramatically. Now is a time of change. There is a self proclaimed socialist leading the polls to be democrat leader in "anti-communist" US of A. It seems like the Labour party is about to elect a Socialist leader. This is epic change - why be so convinced the momentum will stop there?

I'm not asking for huge events to trigger a change, I'm saying huge events are underfoot, the ruling elite may have tried to pretend the worldwide financial crash was nothing to worry about, but they have made no structural changes, brushed it under and carried on as usual. System is fooked!!

This wide "discreditation" is a product of a) things going okay for a while b) Any alternative being removed c) the ruling elite and their media repeatedly telling us they have won; "history has ended"

The last election was won, and beyond what any pre-election poll suggested, because the public believed the tripe they were fed about austerity, reckless spending and welfare dependency. The battle on that has been lost. The mindshare will not return short of an absolute calamity. Whilst you and I know the score really, there is little point fighting battles that were either lost in 79 or 2010 or 2015. Re-treading arguments the public feel have been put to bed will not imo work. It will have the opposite effect.

I disagree. The tories won the spin battle in the face of an opponent who were offering no genuine alternative. Labours campaign was pathetic. The battle is not won, because one did not take place. A fight against an opponent speaking the truth will be a different kettle of fish.

And dismissing a very large section of the Labour party with "they can go if they want to" is highly idealistic. We're talking a considerable number of MPs who I think will really struggle to convincingly fall under Corbyn. You are left with a party that either doesn't wholly buy into their leader OR one where half it's MPs walk away and form a splinter party. Labour simply cannot afford this. I strongly, strongly want to see a more socialist party in charge. But the first priority has to be having a credible opposition who can challenge the government in opposition and unite to prepare for the next election. I'd rather have someone who realistically can achieve those two things than someone who requires some sort of massive economic meltdown in order to stand half a chance.

I believe a large number of MP's are in it for careerist rather than ideological reasons. The vast majority will alter their rhetoric, stay, and find a way to work for the party. I absolutely welcome that; it's how it should be. If a handful of confused right wing politicians in red ties wish to leave that is there choice. Not idealistic - pragmatic, as they are the one's unable to accept and work with the democratically elected leader of the Labour Party. Most likely it will be literally a handful. That is no travesty.
The meltdown is underway and that is why we are discussing Jeremy Corbyn right now.

For me ideology has to be discarded. It went as soon as the Tories realised that being pragmatic rather than dogmatic was the way forward. See how it has benefitted them after they moved away from their traditional positions in tone if not practice.

Ideology means having coherent ideas. This is the starting point. Without coherent ideas, the ship is rudderless and without point. From sound ideas, policies are born. If sensible policies are designed to address very real societal/political/economic problems then they will be accepted as plausible.
More than underlying ideology a party should be judged on the policies they suggest. Corbyns are all very sensible, and once divorced from the label of a "discredited ideology" turn out to be supported by the majority of the public. Funny that!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 07148.html

[freeindeed]

“How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the twentieth century.”
―Aneurin Bevan

[freeindeed]

Apart from in 1945 after a World War, when? Ramsay MacDonald led a minority Govt after everyone else had had their go, and Harold Wilson and Tony Blair would be in Cooper, Burnham and Kendall's centrist, moderate group, not Corbyn's.

Wilson himself was himself 'soft' left in a socialist government.

So we say every time. I'm calling it now: In five years' time we'll be being told that the reason we lost in 2020 was that Jeremy Corbyn in fact wasn't left-wing enough, and if we really want to connect with the electorate with a "clear message" then we need to re-animate the corpse of Karl Marx.

So we say everytime we have a socialist opposition? Everytime we have a financial crisis?

I very much doubt anyone will say that, even though it was quite funny but to be honest if we are debating a Corbyn loss, it certainly won't be because the current crop of 'labour' politicians who are lost in time and space without ideology or coherent policy would have done any better. The public can see through the disingenuous politik of triangulatory please everyone-ism. It's time for a change.

[bobo the clown]

"The public can see through the disingenuous politik of triangulatory please everyone-ism."

They might if more than 3% had a clue what that meant. Real "way to go" with getting people on board that would be.

[freeindeed]

"The public can see through the disingenuous politik of triangulatory please everyone-ism."

They might if more than 3% had a clue what that meant. Real "way to go" with getting people on board that would be.

I particularly enjoyed that sentence too Bobo - Cheers! Real sentences are overated.

Whats with the sniping from the bushes anyway, front up man!

[bobo the clown]

"The public can see through the disingenuous politik of triangulatory please everyone-ism."

They might if more than 3% had a clue what that meant. Real "way to go" with getting people on board that would be.

I particularly enjoyed that sentence too Bobo - Cheers! Real sentences are overated.

Whats with the sniping from the bushes anyway, front up man!

I'm perfectly upfront. I'd love Corbyn to win .... as I'd love Labour to tear itself to shreds and slope off into oblivion.

It's really very straightforward.

In fact, even a narrow loss has them fckd now anyway as this gene's not going back in the bottle quietly. Back to 1983 and all that.

[thebish]

"The public can see through the disingenuous politik of triangulatory please everyone-ism."

They might if more than 3% had a clue what that meant. Real "way to go" with getting people on board that would be.

I particularly enjoyed that sentence too Bobo - Cheers! Real sentences are overated.

Whats with the sniping from the bushes anyway, front up man!

Bobes isn't really FOR anything - simply kneejerkly anti anything he things smells of the left...

[freeindeed]

It is understandable. Why would we want to aspire towards a cohesive society where the vast accumulated wealth is more evenly shared to provide a misery free life for the working poor? Much better that we continue to funnel it all into the accounts of the ultra rich...I get it, I do.

[bobo the clown]

Nowt wrong with being ultra rich. Ask Worthy ....and his mate Billy Bragg.

You'd do yourself a favour though if you wrote in a firm of English your proles might understand.

[freeindeed]

Wealth Inequality

There are now 44 dollar billionaires in Britain, compared with eight at the start of the century, while the number of people whose net worth is at least $50m (£31m) almost quadrupled to 4,660.

Britain’s five richest families worth more than poorest 20%.

The richest 1% of the UK population have as much wealth as the poorest 55% combined

The richest 80 individuals in the world had the same wealth as the poorest 50 per cent of the entire population, some 3.5 billion people.

[bobo the clown]

^^ well it's been your lot blarping on about letting people have aspiration ffs.

[freeindeed]

^^ well it's been your lot blarping on about letting people have aspiration ffs.

Which lot is that?

[bobo the clown]

^^ well it's been your lot blarping on about letting people have aspiration ffs.

Which lot is that?

Do you not watch the news ?

I'm assuming you're a genuine Labour supporter. Not one of these entryist types.

[thebish]

Nowt wrong with being ultra rich. Ask Worthy ....and his mate Billy Bragg.

You'd do yourself a favour though if you wrote in a firm of English your proles might understand.

Aye! Write in a firm of English!

[William the White]

Nowt wrong with being ultra rich. Ask Worthy ....and his mate Billy Bragg.

You'd do yourself a favour though if you wrote in a firm of English your proles might understand.

Aye! Write in a firm of English!

it's bobo - I'm amazed he didn't put an apostrophe in 'proles'.

[bobo the clown]

Nowt wrong with being ultra rich. Ask Worthy ....and his mate Billy Bragg.

You'd do yourself a favour though if you wrote in a firm of English your proles might understand.

Aye! Write in a firm of English!

Sorry about that. I guess you understood though.

[freeindeed]

^^ well it's been your lot blarping on about letting people have aspiration ffs.

Which lot is that?

Do you not watch the news ?

I'm assuming you're a genuine Labour supporter. Not one of these entryist types.

Ouch. Im starting to think that Creepy uncle Lefty touched your clown part as a child.

Nobody from 'my lot' has blarped on about helping people aspire towards obscene wealth.