You take the high road...

[Worthy4England]

I do find all this " they, ll have to learn to stand on their own feet" argument a tad patronising. That Scotland would be a viable independent country is to my mind more credible than the arguments predicting economic armageddon if it did break away.

Certainly from me, it's not meant to be patronizing (or judgemental of the Scots ability to stand on their own two feet). Just an observation that any Country wanting their own independence from the UK should have to stand on their own two feet - including England - not that we'll ever get a vote on it...

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

No offense taken ( not much anyway) but simply by making the point the inference is that Scotland would NOT be able to stand on its own feet.

On sterling - the pound sterling is no more english than scottish - it "belongs" to the united kingdom
So if the uk as constituted breaks up then presumeably england would also need to find a new currency??

[CrazyHorse]

Nice try, but the UK isn't breaking up; you lot are voting to leave. If we were breaking up then the rest of us would also get a say in it.

[Bruce Rioja]

Do you not think it is logical that Scotland might want to 'have their cake and eat it' given they've had decade upon decade of the shitty end of the stick?

I certainly feel that way right now living in the North West of England and I've felt similar living in other areas of the country too....

Really? Care to expand?

[Worthy4England]

No offense taken ( not much anyway) but simply by making the point the inference is that Scotland would NOT be able to stand on its own feet.

On sterling - the pound sterling is no more english than scottish - it "belongs" to the united kingdom
So if the uk as constituted breaks up then presumeably england would also need to find a new currency??

No inference meant, either, I actually have no notion whether Scotland could or couldn't stand on it's own feet. The original comment from me regarding the pound was in relation to Salmond's notion that Scotland will keep the pound and maybe it's here I have got some sort of inference that's not meant. There are plenty of pounds - I wouldn't be at all opposed to a Scottish pound and a United Kingdom pound, both tied to their own economies, but would make the point, that the United Kingdom may well not break up because Scotland have elected to leave it, in which case, surely the United Kingdom should keep the currency it had (even if we call it the UK pound, to make it clear it's not the Scottish Pound)?

Edit: Just double checked, Scotland seems to be proposing a Stirling Zone - so not that each separate country has it's own stand alone currency. His basis for this is that the Scottish Government’s Fiscal Commission Working Group said this was the best course of action for both Scotland and the United Kingdom.

The members of that working group contained how many folks from the United Kingdom (minus Scotland)? Well none.

And it does look cake and eat it, now I've scanned the recommendations.

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

Sterling is a convertible currency.This means that any country in the world can use it .. as australia nz for example did when first becoming independent.scotlands right to use sterling as its currency if it so wants is further enhanced by the fact it owns a population share in the BOE so in effect they would be using the same currency union they have been using for centuries whilst leaving the political union. In any case launching its own currency would not only be costly and difficult for scotland it would also be potentially difficult for england . note that an independent scotland would be one of the few countries in the world that england would have a positive balance of trade with- the rUK would also need to purchase 30% ish of its energy from scotland unless it wanted to be beholden to the eurozone countries. If there was the need for currency transactions at the border the price of energy in the rUK would inevitably rise. I cant see whitehall economists and the treasury going for that one. Cutting off noses to spite faces would also cost money

[Worthy4England]

This isn't the view of the UK Treasury (unsurprisingly), they've already published a paper recommending that the UK doesn't enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland.

The following is my synopsis of the UK Treasury position (rather than my own assertions)

Scotland could continue to use the currency, through currency substitution, but the would give them no control over the policy governing the currency - which is the function of the BoE (incidentally the Scottish Government is proposing that they have voting rights on the BoE's MPC's). The UK Treasury also has a view that the UK pound is not an asset - it's a system of currency - as it "doesn't appear on the balance sheet" and as such wouldn't be part of the negotiation on any break up of the United Kingdom. Their logic is that the currency per se, has no value - only the physical representation of that currency does (so physical pounds, shillings and pence - they're up for negotiation as part of any separation agreement)

If Scotland went down the currency substitution route, then they would have no input to BoE policy decisions, so effectively Scotland would be at the behest of BoE monetary policy decisions and interest rates, lender of last resort etc., nor would Scotland have a Central Bank (as it couldn't print UK money, or set policy in relation to it) and therefore couldn't influence either the BoE or the European Central Bank.

My view - there's lots of "rights" being asserted that I'd want to know about before casting my vote. I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of Scotland being able to influence UK monetary policy through formal voting rights.

[BWFC_Insane]

Do you not think it is logical that Scotland might want to 'have their cake and eat it' given they've had decade upon decade of the shitty end of the stick?

I certainly feel that way right now living in the North West of England and I've felt similar living in other areas of the country too....

Really? Care to expand?

The flooding being a very recent example of areas of the country being ignored until the South East is affected. Barely anyone raised an eyebrow in Westminster until the Thames started flooding. And yes it might be perception but perception does matter.

Take trains, in the North West a lot of our rolling stock is cast offs from London and the South East. Carriages that are in fact well beyond their service times. Decades beyond in fact. Why? Because the money was spent on making sure London had nice new carriages and it meant there wasn't enough for us, so we will dump our old shit on you.

The money spent down the decades on infrastructure jobs and transport is disproportionate. I've spoken to an MP who I won't name, about in issue in a previous job where I was trying to gain government support for something, and the off the record answer was 'nobody will support that unless you move it to somewhere South of Watford'. He was half joking but half not.

In any recession we are usually hit harder as our house prices drop far further, and usually take much longer to bounce back.

Industries in the North of England were decimated and there was no back up plan and communities of people were left to rot. This led our economy to be finance and service dominated, and one dominated by our capital city.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

scotlands right to use sterling as its currency if it so wants is further enhanced by the fact it owns a population share in the BOE so in effect they would be using the same currency union they have been using for centuries whilst leaving the political union.

Current legal thinking appears to be that Scotland has a proportionate share of the UK's assets, but not its institutions - including the BoE.

This article by a public law academic is interesting and deals with some of these issues: http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress. ... ependence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well worth a read.

[Gary the Enfield]

Do you not think it is logical that Scotland might want to 'have their cake and eat it' given they've had decade upon decade of the shitty end of the stick?

I certainly feel that way right now living in the North West of England and I've felt similar living in other areas of the country too....

Really? Care to expand?

The flooding being a very recent example of areas of the country being ignored until the South East is affected. Barely anyone raised an eyebrow in Westminster until the Thames started flooding. And yes it might be perception but perception does matter. Utter Bollocks. Cornwall, The Somerset levels, Dorset (including Dawlish) have all had masses of coverage over the last month and a half. Areas of the Thames (which goes back further than Oxford, by the way) have only been mentioned last week when the River started to flood. How much flooding HAS there been in urban communities in the North? How many thousands of people have had their electricity and water supplies disrupted?
Take trains, in the North West a lot of our rolling stock is cast offs from London and the South East. Carriages that are in fact well beyond their service times. Decades beyond in fact. Why? Because the money was spent on making sure London had nice new carriages and it meant there wasn't enough for us, so we will dump our old shit on you. Utter bollocks. SOME lines have had improvements and new rolling stock. The trains and tube carriages I ride on a regular basis are still from 1960's manufacture. I notice Manchester is well served with a lovely fresh Tram network though. Or maybe that's just my perception.

The money spent down the decades on infrastructure jobs and transport is disproportionate. I've spoken to an MP who I won't name, about in issue in a previous job where I was trying to gain government support for something, and the off the record answer was 'nobody will support that unless you move it to somewhere South of Watford'. He was half joking but half not. And there you have it. Half joking. Probably blinkered. Almost certainly claiming expenses on a second mortgage on a nice Kensington apartment when he's living high on the hoof in Parliament I guess the money spent on HS2 dowsn't count either.In any recession we are usually hit harder as our house prices drop far further, and usually take much longer to bounce back. Market forces dictate house prices. That's always happened. Your three bedroom terrace in a (semi) rural location will always be less where the demand is less. Apart from The Lakes. Have you tried buying a house in Bowness or Kendall recently.

Industries in the North of England were decimated and there was no back up plan and communities of people were left to rot. This led our economy to be finance and service dominated, and one dominated by our capital city.

Unfortunately I have to agree. However Sunderland and Derby seem to be doing quite well.

[BWFC_Insane]

Do you not think it is logical that Scotland might want to 'have their cake and eat it' given they've had decade upon decade of the shitty end of the stick?

I certainly feel that way right now living in the North West of England and I've felt similar living in other areas of the country too....

Really? Care to expand?

The flooding being a very recent example of areas of the country being ignored until the South East is affected. Barely anyone raised an eyebrow in Westminster until the Thames started flooding. And yes it might be perception but perception does matter. Utter Bollocks. Cornwall, The Somerset levels, Dorset (including Dawlish) have all had masses of coverage over the last month and a half. Areas of the Thames (which goes back further than Oxford, by the way) have only been mentioned last week when the River started to flood. How much flooding HAS there been in urban communities in the North? How many thousands of people have had their electricity and water supplies disrupted?
Take trains, in the North West a lot of our rolling stock is cast offs from London and the South East. Carriages that are in fact well beyond their service times. Decades beyond in fact. Why? Because the money was spent on making sure London had nice new carriages and it meant there wasn't enough for us, so we will dump our old shit on you. Utter bollocks. SOME lines have had improvements and new rolling stock. The trains and tube carriages I ride on a regular basis are still from 1960's manufacture. I notice Manchester is well served with a lovely fresh Tram network though. Or maybe that's just my perception.

The money spent down the decades on infrastructure jobs and transport is disproportionate. I've spoken to an MP who I won't name, about in issue in a previous job where I was trying to gain government support for something, and the off the record answer was 'nobody will support that unless you move it to somewhere South of Watford'. He was half joking but half not. And there you have it. Half joking. Probably blinkered. Almost certainly claiming expenses on a second mortgage on a nice Kensington apartment when he's living high on the hoof in Parliament I guess the money spent on HS2 dowsn't count either.In any recession we are usually hit harder as our house prices drop far further, and usually take much longer to bounce back. Market forces dictate house prices. That's always happened. Your three bedroom terrace in a (semi) rural location will always be less where the demand is less. Apart from The Lakes. Have you tried buying a house in Bowness or Kendall recently.

Industries in the North of England were decimated and there was no back up plan and communities of people were left to rot. This led our economy to be finance and service dominated, and one dominated by our capital city.

Unfortunately I have to agree. However Sunderland and Derby seem to be doing quite well.

It is interesting to get an alternate viewpoint. HS2 though, all that money being spent so that us poor Northerners can travel down to that there London a bit quicker so that when we are summoned for meetings, we won't be so late....

I say half in jest again, but part of me feels like that.

I'd say 70% of my longer distance travel isn't to London. And it is the local travel networks that feel neglected and force me, mainly into the car.

[Bruce Rioja]

GtE has pretty much answered ahead of me - utter bollocks. And if it's that bad why don't you feck off somewhere else?

[Gary the Enfield]

Do you not think it is logical that Scotland might want to 'have their cake and eat it' given they've had decade upon decade of the shitty end of the stick?

I certainly feel that way right now living in the North West of England and I've felt similar living in other areas of the country too....

Really? Care to expand?

The flooding being a very recent example of areas of the country being ignored until the South East is affected. Barely anyone raised an eyebrow in Westminster until the Thames started flooding. And yes it might be perception but perception does matter. Utter Bollocks. Cornwall, The Somerset levels, Dorset (including Dawlish) have all had masses of coverage over the last month and a half. Areas of the Thames (which goes back further than Oxford, by the way) have only been mentioned last week when the River started to flood. How much flooding HAS there been in urban communities in the North? How many thousands of people have had their electricity and water supplies disrupted?
Take trains, in the North West a lot of our rolling stock is cast offs from London and the South East. Carriages that are in fact well beyond their service times. Decades beyond in fact. Why? Because the money was spent on making sure London had nice new carriages and it meant there wasn't enough for us, so we will dump our old shit on you. Utter bollocks. SOME lines have had improvements and new rolling stock. The trains and tube carriages I ride on a regular basis are still from 1960's manufacture. I notice Manchester is well served with a lovely fresh Tram network though. Or maybe that's just my perception.

The money spent down the decades on infrastructure jobs and transport is disproportionate. I've spoken to an MP who I won't name, about in issue in a previous job where I was trying to gain government support for something, and the off the record answer was 'nobody will support that unless you move it to somewhere South of Watford'. He was half joking but half not. And there you have it. Half joking. Probably blinkered. Almost certainly claiming expenses on a second mortgage on a nice Kensington apartment when he's living high on the hoof in Parliament I guess the money spent on HS2 dowsn't count either.In any recession we are usually hit harder as our house prices drop far further, and usually take much longer to bounce back. Market forces dictate house prices. That's always happened. Your three bedroom terrace in a (semi) rural location will always be less where the demand is less. Apart from The Lakes. Have you tried buying a house in Bowness or Kendall recently.

Industries in the North of England were decimated and there was no back up plan and communities of people were left to rot. This led our economy to be finance and service dominated, and one dominated by our capital city.

Unfortunately I have to agree. However Sunderland and Derby seem to be doing quite well.

It is interesting to get an alternate viewpoint. HS2 though, all that money being spent so that us poor Northerners can travel down to that there London a bit quicker so that when we are summoned for meetings, we won't be so late....

I say half in jest again, but part of me feels like that.

I'd say 70% of my longer distance travel isn't to London. And it is the local travel networks that feel neglected and force me, mainly into the car.

You've missed the point on that one. It means I can sell my ludicrously overpriced 3 bed terrace and buy a modest little detached in some North West idyll and still be able to commute to work. Further I can afford to employ staff to prepare food for my evening meal, tend my extensive gardens and arrange my social diary. This will boost the local economy nicely and reduce the unemployment figures. Win. Win.

[BWFC_Insane]

GtE has pretty much answered ahead of me - utter bollocks. And if it's that bad why don't you feck off somewhere else?

Which is pretty much an argument for anyone who ever complains about anything. If you don't like it piss off......interesting.

[Hoboh]

GtE has pretty much answered ahead of me - utter bollocks. And if it's that bad why don't you feck off somewhere else?

Which is pretty much an argument for anyone who ever complains about anything. If you don't like it piss off......interesting.

Well its true, 'if you don't like something vote with your feet' is the oft used term.

[Worthy4England]

GtE has pretty much answered ahead of me - utter bollocks. And if it's that bad why don't you feck off somewhere else?

Which is pretty much an argument for anyone who ever complains about anything. If you don't like it piss off......interesting.

Well its true, 'if you don't like something vote with your feet' is the oft used term.

I've not seen you doing much "voting with your feet" Hobes, I generally see you posting stuff on here. Is that a valid second option?

[Hoboh]

No offense taken ( not much anyway) but simply by making the point the inference is that Scotland would NOT be able to stand on its own feet.

On sterling - the pound sterling is no more english than scottish - it "belongs" to the united kingdom
So if the uk as constituted breaks up then presumeably england would also need to find a new currency??

It may well be able to do so but not in the lap of luxury the SNP are promoting they simply will not be able to afford that.
I suspect a lot of the business Salmond is 'banking' on will drift south soon after a yes vote and if he really spits his dummy out and reneges on his share of any debt, just who the hell does he think would ever trust him or his party again?

If Scotland votes to leave from day One, the taps should be turned off.
The frigate order moved to Portsmouth
We should enter a deal with the Yanks for a temporary site to maintain Trident until we either scrap it or develop our own base
Scotland should foot it's own social care and benefits
We should introduce border controls and import taxes on whiskey and Scottish goods etc
The army, navy and air force should relocate to under used bases south of the border.
See you want independence you got it although you may wish to double the size of your Police force to deal with the civil unrest.
Why do the Scots think the English would be happy for them to cherry pick all the good things to help them set up?
Sorry it just isn’t going to happen!

[Relentless09]

No offense taken ( not much anyway) but simply by making the point the inference is that Scotland would NOT be able to stand on its own feet.

On sterling - the pound sterling is no more english than scottish - it "belongs" to the united kingdom
So if the uk as constituted breaks up then presumeably england would also need to find a new currency??

It may well be able to do so but not in the lap of luxury the SNP are promoting they simply will not be able to afford that.
I suspect a lot of the business Salmond is 'banking' on will drift south soon after a yes vote and if he really spits his dummy out and reneges on his share of any debt, just who the hell does he think would ever trust him or his party again?

If Scotland votes to leave from day One, the taps should be turned off.
The frigate order moved to Portsmouth
We should enter a deal with the Yanks for a temporary site to maintain Trident until we either scrap it or develop our own base
Scotland should foot it's own social care and benefits
We should introduce border controls and import taxes on whiskey and Scottish goods etc
The army, navy and air force should relocate to under used bases south of the border.
See you want independence you got it although you may wish to double the size of your Police force to deal with the civil unrest.
Why do the Scots think the English would be happy for them to cherry pick all the good things to help them set up?
Sorry it just isn’t going to happen!

I agree with this, in my opinion Scotland won't become independent but a move for further devolution could be made.

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

whisky...

[Bruce Rioja]

whisky...

As an aside(ish), how the distillers of Scotland perceive the growing number of Japanese producers? Never tried it myself but I hear that it's pretty good stuff.