Today I'm angry about.....

[thebish]

I think working tax credits and the like are a ridiculous, vote-chasing subsidy for both businesses (who should be paying more) and those who receive them who don't need them.

I find it rather infuriating that, in the current vicious war being waged against our magnificent, civilised (civilising?) Welfare State, that the key principles of the system have been forgotten. Its to help the most needy, to keep the wolf from the door, not to pay for young Clarissa's or Tarquin's piano lessons - as noble an idea as that is.

Its also to his shame that The Chancellor decided to focus on those who couldn't get a job when identifying the problem, instead of those who have a job, or more precisely, those who have a job but are under-payed. Government should stop subsidising business by the back door. We sold off our national assets because we were told of their inefficiency, yet nothing has changed, just the method by which the subsidy is given out.

[wigan white]

The Tw*t I was behind this morning going down Chorley New Road, who kept braking for no reason at all, then almost stopped dead and turned off without indicating then turned his head and laughed at me, if i could've turned around without causing a crash i'd have followed the cnut and smashed his childish grinning smug face all over his feckin windscreen.......

[Hoboh]

if he worked full time and she didn't work at all - then she'd be lambasted for being a work-shy layabout... clearly she isn't - being a care-assistant is no joke job and is very poorly paid...

Oh right, so those of us that do take the trouble to work 50+ hours a week should supplement her income so she can spit out babies at a rate of knotts then?!

just pointing out that she is being criticised for working - as if working - having a job is her way of beating the system - and if she wasn't working - she'd be criticised for not working and playing the system... seems like she's on a hiding either way - whether she works or whether she doesn't...

as for subsidising other people's kids - you're entitled to be cross about your hard-earned paying for stuff you don't want... i guess we all have different priorities in life..

I don't want to subsidise your roads
you don't want to subsidise GG's lovely, gorgeous twins

(though - my parents subsidised you and you brother when you were born - so did GG's, probably!)

thing is - about the society we live in... we need to constantly breed and recruit the next generation of tax payers so that when you and I retire, the roads and the health service and the police and the ambulances and all the other gubbins that we elect governments to make choices about can still be afforded.

so - it seems to me - it's a small investment that massively pays off - helping parents bring potential new taxpayers into the world so that they in turn can pay back far more than was ever paid in on their behalf - and the UK hamster wheel - keeps turning.. it's basic economics...

A minor problem here bish, fewer and fewer are!

[thebish]

^ is it not true that there are now more people actually working in the UK than there ever have been before?

[Gary the Enfield]

^ is it not true that there are now more people actually working in the UK than there ever have been before?

Maybe they're all working part time and claiming more in benefits than they earn?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I think working tax credits and the like are a ridiculous, vote-chasing subsidy for both businesses (who should be paying more) and those who receive them who don't need them.

I find it rather infuriating that, in the current vicious war being waged against our magnificent, civilised (civilising?) Welfare State, that the key principles of the system have been forgotten. Its to help the most needy, to keep the wolf from the door, not to pay for young Clarissa's or Tarquin's piano lessons - as noble an idea as that is.

Its also to his shame that The Chancellor decided to focus on those who couldn't get a job when identifying the problem, instead of those who have a job, or more precisely, those who have a job but are under-payed. Government should stop subsidising business by the back door. We sold off our national assets because we were told of their inefficiency, yet nothing has changed, just the method by which the subsidy is given out.

I agree that the Welfare State has grown into something it should never have become. The fact that far more families get something from it than don't suggests something has gone badly wrong somewhere.

When so many businesses have gone to the wall in the last 5 years, it seems a bit facile to say that 'businesses should be paying more'. Especially when they are already competing with German businesses that do not have to pay any minimum wage.

[Lord Kangana]

Of course, because in a world where our government has to subsidise people's wages, the obvious answer would be to ensure that businesses can pay them less.

Perhaps, and it seems that nobody ever considers this on the right because business is seen as a panacea for everything, its because their business model is shit?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Shit business models should go to the wall - you won't find many on the right disagreeing with that.

I'm not sure why you think that any business that couldn't accommodate a significantly higher minimum wage structure should automatically be included in this bracket, however.

I suspect what you don't like are those companies that make large profits whilst paying the minimum wage level that is currently set fairly low?

If that is so, and creaming off that 'surplus' profit is what is important to you, there must be better ways of getting at that than minimum wage laws? Even at current (low) wage levels, we are so uncompetitive that there are huge incentives to automate and outsource.

[bobo the clown]

[quote="mummywhycantieatcrayons"] .... If that is so, and creaming off that 'surplus' profit is what is important to you, there must be better ways of getting at that than minimum wage laws? Even at current (low) wage levels, we are so uncompetitive that there are huge incentives to automate and outsource.[/quote]I'm not sure it's as simple as that mummy. The cost of employing people ... certainly in medium to large manufacturing type industries ... is way, way more than their wage. To be honest whether their wage ids £6.10 or £7.10 or even £8.10 an hour is a marginal matter.

The NI, pension, and other sundry costs add, of course. But also the sickness levels, the need to man-up for high average absence, the overtime it causes. The Health and Safety costs ... not that employers shouldn't provide a safe workplace, but the sheer weight of H&S systems and controls. Add to that the claim culture ... in three places I've worked an industrial injury claim is seen as a little bonus on an almost annual basis for many workers. The sheer fear of doing things, the challenges that come all the time, the cost of managing people ... all this adds to an unpredictable and overwhelming extra cost which swamps the actual basic hourly wage.

These things don't arise from employees you've 'let go', nor from machines used in automated processes. These machines don't claim stress, take parental leave, appeal against decisions as a matter of routine. They don't claim workplace stress or injury or take sick leave. Don't claim discrimination for sometimes the smallest sleight. They don't need consulting when they are switched off.

Wage costs are only a minor factor in the overall picture and people .... including you and me ... are complicated, and expensive.

[Lord Kangana]

I know of at least two companies that I have worked for that have lowered wages by 10% recently. Both have posted larger gross and net profits than ever before, both have remunerated their directors more handsomely than ever before. Before the wage cut by the way. Theres a lot of nonsense being talked, many companies are using the "recession" as an excuse to unscrupulously profiteer.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I know of at least two companies that I have worked for that have lowered wages by 10% recently. Both have posted larger gross and net profits than ever before, both have remunerated their directors more handsomely than ever before. Before the wage cut by the way. Theres a lot of nonsense being talked, many companies are using the "recession" as an excuse to unscrupulously profiteer.

You know that shit where you just quote the post and don't add anything. I thought of that and then decided to add the +1

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Fxck it +1000

[Hoboh]

It's the rising short term profit year on year that's killing everything.
Whatever happend to sustainable steady growth?
The rise of the Yuppie killed it, hedge funds killed it, Pension companies killed it, personal greed of all of us wanting 'easy money' killed it.
The basic work hard get a good reward is like the UK, drawing its final breath.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I know of at least two companies that I have worked for that have lowered wages by 10% recently. Both have posted larger gross and net profits than ever before, both have remunerated their directors more handsomely than ever before. Before the wage cut by the way. Theres a lot of nonsense being talked, many companies are using the "recession" as an excuse to unscrupulously profiteer.

What do you do when the market price for your inputs goes down, LK?

I'm not saying it's desirable that some people can make more money directly because of other people's situations becoming more desperate and precarious, but I do think that a minimum wage increase would be an incredibly blunt instrument to use to address the issue.

[Lord Kangana]

Market Price is a rather pejorative term to use, I would prefer price fixing. Most companies have cottoned on to people's fears with regards to employment, particularly employment that retains you locally. Most are collecting data on each others actions, mostly colloquially, but sometimes unscrupulously. But all aware that people are less likely to leave.

As it happens, I just move on to where the money is, but then I have no kids (and no immediate plans to have them) and a reasonably understanding partner (though, admittedly, less understanding as the years progress). That again, though, is becoming in itself harder to do, as companies are now clamping down on mileage, travel, accomodation etc etc - to the extent that one employer I worked for wouldn't pay me a penny for the first 300 miles I clocked up in an 8 day stretch working for them. I don't (and won't) work for them anymore, though I'm not stupid enough to have burnt my bridges with them.

But what to do? Well, first implore them to look at wage increases. And if not, why not use a blunt instrument? Its too simplistic to refer to market forces, most industries have a cartel-like nature to them anyway. Why is it so bad to fight back against that with the people we employ ourselves to look after our best interests?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Market Price is a rather pejorative term to use,

This is, of course, a chasm between our viewpoints that will never be bridged!

[Bruce Rioja]

Electricity +10%

Gas +11.8%

We're also helping the Government to deliver schemes that could make many homes more energy efficient...

Jolly good. What the feck's it doing on my tab, you robbing c*nts?

[CrazyHorse]

Didn't bobo used to have a shit comedians thread? I can't find it but Ross Noble needs his name putting on it. The unfunny geordie long haired tosser.

[Bruce Rioja]

Didn't bobo used to have a shit comedians thread? I can't find it but Ross Noble needs his name putting on it. The unfunny geordie long haired tosser.

He's one of those people that I've actually tried to like, if that makes sense, but drew a blank - the unfunny, Geordie, long-haired tosser.

[bobo the clown]

Didn't bobo used to have a shit comedians thread? I can't find it but Ross Noble needs his name putting on it. The unfunny geordie long haired tosser.

I did, but no idea what it was called.

I guess if you search "Lenny Henry, Gina Yashere and/or that fckg N.Irish c^nt who's name ... wonderfully ... escapes me you'll find it.

Ross Noble is an acquired taste, some may say.