What are you watching tonight?

[William the White]

Good old-fashioned western tonight, Ulzana'a Raid, on Freeview 24 at 10-00. Kingdom of Heaven (great film) is on Freeview 10? also at 9-0.

Kingdom of Heaven truly abysmal in my opinion. As crass as it gets.

Define?

This would need to be a conversation - I can see how, in some ways, photography, for instance, the movie works well - it's crassness to me is simply profoundly at the heart of the project. It attempts to bring a pretty 'liberal hollywood' outlook to a historical act of naked aggression and treat both sides of the experience as morally culpable.

I just don't think this works in human terms. The violence of the aggressor is not as culpable as the violence of the victim in self defence. Even the law recognises the right to self-defence. To treat both sides as morally equal in such circumstances is crass. And I think this movie is sickeningly crass.

Okay. We're going to disagree, I can tell, but it'll allow a bit of debate:

First and foremost it's a film, entertainment, and a decent storyline as such. I claimed nothing more. People are not going to pay it any more historical attention than Robin Hood. Any thinking person who knows their history is hardly likely to take it as earthshaking revelation time, are they?

Secondly, in its very nature and presentation it attempts to show the futility of it all rather than moralise on either side. It brings the tale down to two men in the end who are both seen to be somewhat puzzled as to what any of it has achieved. The whole thing is based loosely around the crusades of a period heading to be almost a millenium ago. Are we still trying to make ourselves do penance for the sins of the fathers? You see, frankly, all this "apologising" for something that was a fact of life/sign of the times etc, all those years ago, is the most useless of pastimes to me. Everyone took orders from someone else and the Kings and Pope were the real culprits. We, as today, had nothing to do with any of it and all this guilt is rather false and useless . You can't apologise for someone else, particularly some one who's been dead almost a thousand years.

The film isn't crass at all in my eyes. It doesn't attempt to justify anything and attempts to show the uselessness of war and the gullibility of the people of the time, a time ruled by religeous fervour and basic poverty with the road to Jerusalem seen as the saving grace for all. The west at least has moved on a long way from "Killing Saracens is not a crime, God wills it!", the east, well, I'm not quite as sure about. Neither are just vegetable or mineral but have a mainly animal core. Trying to rationalise that part can't be done without realising the nature of the beast in both.

No, not a crass film at all for me.

Mystifeid why you think i'm asking for penance or apology for the crusades (though I do think it would be a v gd idea to drop this term for any endeavour of high moral purpose - since the jihadists take great joy in this, calling all they see as christian aggressors 'crusaders').

[TANGODANCER]

Just for this W: a historical act of naked aggression .

Wasn't bringing it in directly, but just to answer your comment that the film was crass and the main reason for it. Not saying either that your view was a wrong one, just having a different one. I thought it presented the case fairly enough. I suppose my main point is that you can't judge any race as a whole as being right or wrong, good or bad when there are equal mixtures of thieves, murderers and villains in each. Twenty five thousand Christians were slaughtered before they ever got near Jerusalem and disease and famine took care of a whole lot more. No film ever really shows the truth and Kingdom of Heaven was just a film.

[William the White]

Just for this W: a historical act of naked aggression .

Wasn't bringing it in directly, but just to answer your comment that the film was crass and the main reason for it. Not saying either that your view was a wrong one, just having a different one. I thought it presented the case fairly enough. I suppose my main point is that you can't judge any race as a whole as being right or wrong, good or bad when there are equal mixtures of thieves, murderers and villains in each. Twenty five thousand Christians were slaughtered before they ever got near Jerusalem and disease and famine took care of a whole lot more. No film ever really shows the truth and Kingdom of Heaven was just a film.

But it was a historical act of naked aggression, cross to the fore, armoured nobles behind and the peasant infantry after that... they weren't on a gardening holiday... 25000 christians - i promise you - would not have been slaughtered before reaching jerusalem, if they'd stayed at home...

But I didn't demand apologies for that...

Just pointed out that it made the entire liberal apologia - which you analyse accurately - crass...

By the way - I agree that many films don't tell a historical truth. I don't think they have to, either. But in some the distortion is so ludicrous that it undermines the ery premise of the film. Like this one.

Why don't we agree to differ and talk about something else?

Desperate Romantics was historical bollocks but a lot of fun, wasn't it?

[TANGODANCER]

Desperate Romantics was historical bollocks but a lot of fun, wasn't it?

Missed the damned thing listening to the match. Had a tape ready in the machine too. Actually scoring a goal took me away on a cloud.

[William the White]

Desperate Romantics was historical bollocks but a lot of fun, wasn't it?

Missed the damned thing listening to the match. Had a tape ready in the machine too. Actually scoring a goal took me away on a cloud.

I think you would enjoy todays guardian review of Desperate Romantics. It ends: 'A second series should be a cert. Publicity-hungry, not overly talented artists talking themselves up: who will play Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin?'

[TANGODANCER]

Desperate Romantics was historical bollocks but a lot of fun, wasn't it?

Missed the damned thing listening to the match. Had a tape ready in the machine too. Actually scoring a goal took me away on a cloud.

I think you would enjoy todays guardian review of Desperate Romantics. It ends: 'A second series should be a cert. Publicity-hungry, not overly talented artists talking themselves up: who will play Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin?'

Is the last bit yours? . I think the writer must be Rembrandt if he thinks the Brotherhood were not "overly talented". All were fine artists, particularly Millais. Presumptious git.

[William the White]

Desperate Romantics was historical bollocks but a lot of fun, wasn't it?

Missed the damned thing listening to the match. Had a tape ready in the machine too. Actually scoring a goal took me away on a cloud.

I think you would enjoy todays guardian review of Desperate Romantics. It ends: 'A second series should be a cert. Publicity-hungry, not overly talented artists talking themselves up: who will play Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin?'

Is the last bit yours? . I think the writer must be Rembrandt if he thinks the Brotherhood were not "overly talented". All were fine artists, particularly Millais. Presumptious git.

All the review is the Guardian's. you will, at least, share his position on hirst and Emin...

[TANGODANCER]

Desperate Romantics was historical bollocks but a lot of fun, wasn't it?

Missed the damned thing listening to the match. Had a tape ready in the machine too. Actually scoring a goal took me away on a cloud.

I think you would enjoy todays guardian review of Desperate Romantics. It ends: 'A second series should be a cert. Publicity-hungry, not overly talented artists talking themselves up: who will play Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin?'

Is the last bit yours? . I think the writer must be Rembrandt if he thinks the Brotherhood were not "overly talented". All were fine artists, particularly Millais. Presumptious git.

All the review is the Guardian's. you will, at least, share his position on hirst and Emin...

Erm, yes. Wonder who'll play them, Caroline Aherne and Mark Lammar?

[William the White]

Missed the damned thing listening to the match. Had a tape ready in the machine too. Actually scoring a goal took me away on a cloud.

I think you would enjoy todays guardian review of Desperate Romantics. It ends: 'A second series should be a cert. Publicity-hungry, not overly talented artists talking themselves up: who will play Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin?'

Is the last bit yours? . I think the writer must be Rembrandt if he thinks the Brotherhood were not "overly talented". All were fine artists, particularly Millais. Presumptious git.

All the review is the Guardian's. you will, at least, share his position on hirst and Emin...

Erm, yes. Wonder who'll play them, Caroline Aherne and Mark Lammar?

Good shout on Aherne...

[General Mannerheim]

last night i saw 'Let the Right One In' (Swedish: Låt den rätte komma in)

creeeeeepy - but excellent!!!

[bobby5]

last night i saw 'Let the Right One In' (Swedish: Låt den rätte komma in)

creeeeeepy - but excellent!!!

Missed that at the cinema recently. Really want to se this film.

[General Mannerheim]

last night i saw 'Let the Right One In' (Swedish: Låt den rätte komma in)

creeeeeepy - but excellent!!!

Missed that at the cinema recently. Really want to se this film.

yeah, its very good! even the dodgy american voice dubbing enhanced the spookyness for me!

on a totally different tilt, but also a brilliant brilliant film, ive just watched matchstick men again! class.

[TANGODANCER]

Going to forego the Arsenal fandango tonight in favour of the Barrow Bridge classic on BBC1 at 8-30 The Sixty Three steps.

Oh, er edit that, it's Hannay tackling a less daunting climb, only Thirty Nine Steps..

[Prufrock]

Eduardo's piss poor dive, accompanied by yet more piss poor commentary. Why are they all so shite? Tyldesley and Beglin (sp?) are easy to pick on, but commentators on Saturday versus Hull kept talking about 'Seb Forlan' (Caleb Folan) and Kamel Ghivas. If your job is talking about people using their names, surely knowing their names is step fecking one. It's so amateur.

[Lord Kangana]

But they're doing an adequate job Pru, and surely thats enough, isn't it?

[Prufrock]

But they're doing an adequate job Pru, and surely thats enough, isn't it?

Aye, but they're doing just enough, and that's not enough.

[William the White]

Tonight I watched the very last - two hour special - episode of The Wire...

I am now a total convert to recognising its superiority (by a very small margin) to the magnificent Sopranos...

This is seriously good, and gets better throughout the five series, as it tackles drugs, crime, indistrial decline, political corruption, education and the decline of journalistic truth...

It's a tremendous indictment of the american social system, but what makes it good is not that - it's the dramatic confidence - as it deals with moral ambiguity, temptation and fall...

Simply the best TV ever... and by the final series, and final episode, hits new heights...

[Bruce Rioja]

Just so that you all know - Play.com have got a sale on over the weekend.

I've just ordered up Kes (I've never seen it all), Requiem For A Dream, Operation Valkyrie, Nil By Mouth, Shakespeare Retold, In Bruges, Batman - Dark Night and Au Revoir Les Enfants. All for £35.00.

They should keep me out of mischief for a while.

[General Mannerheim]

im the only person i know who enjoyed In Bruges - i thought it was great, very funny too.

Nil by mouth is a different league tho - class, but disturbing. not many films can make you feel as uncomfortable as that - Brutal!

[William the White]

Just so that you all know - Play.com have got a sale on over the weekend.

I've just ordered up Kes (I've never seen it all), Requiem For A Dream, Operation Valkyrie, Nil By Mouth, Shakespeare Retold, In Bruges, Batman - Dark Night and Au Revoir Les Enfants. All for £35.00.

They should keep me out of mischief for a while.

great selection...

get tissues ready for end of Kes and Au Revoir... Prepare to laugh hysterically for In Bruges...

Don't know Shakespeare Retold... p'raps i should