Britains Got Talent...

[CrazyHorse]

Still think it's wrong that Signature didn't win.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Go on then, Jessies will do

[Montreal Wanderer]

There were few black citizen numbers of any real note in England until the Jamaican arrivals in the nineteen-fifties. From the backgounds, and also from book illustrations of the period, I'm sure Dickens envisaged no such thing or he would have stressed it.

While I am fairly certain that Dickens envisioned Nancy as Caucasian (fairly though not 100%), commie does have a point about the black population dating from Roman times and increasing under the Tudors during the great age of exploration and sail. By 1764 the number of blacks in London was estimated to be 20,000, not a trivial amount, and Dickens was writing over 75 years later. It seems highly probable that some of these people were 'ladies of the evening'. However, I do find the other evidence or lack of evidence more compelling. Had she been black, there is a fair possibility Dickens would have mentioned it as he mentioned Fagin was a Jew for example. The initial description, the disguise as Oliver's sister and other points raised make Caucasian origins likely. But I don't buy the argument about the size of the black population. Some interesting reading here.

[TANGODANCER]

There were few black citizen numbers of any real note in England until the Jamaican arrivals in the nineteen-fifties. From the backgounds, and also from book illustrations of the period, I'm sure Dickens envisaged no such thing or he would have stressed it.

While I am fairly certain that Dickens envisioned Nancy as Caucasian (fairly though not 100%), commie does have a point about the black population dating from Roman times and increasing under the Tudors during the great age of exploration and sail. By 1764 the number of blacks in London was estimated to be 20,000, not a trivial amount, and Dickens was writing over 75 years later. It seems highly probable that some of these people were 'ladies of the evening'. However, I do find the other evidence or lack of evidence more compelling. Had she been black, there is a fair possibility Dickens would have mentioned it as he mentioned Fagin was a Jew for example. The initial description, the disguise as Oliver's sister and other points raised make Caucasian origins likely. But I don't buy the argument about the size of the black population. Some interesting reading here.

20,000 in a city the size of London isn't a particularly huge amount, but I'll accept the point as valid and admit my own estimation was less.

A book I intend to look for is "The Cambridge Companion to The Victorian Novel". It seems to give a balanced view on things and also some interesting comments on modern views on the topic. The bone of contention though was not how many other races were there but why Dickens made no mention of Nancy being black, Irish or any other race than a British Londoner in a seedy suburb of the capital. Victorian novelists were no less skilful in character description than today's authors and I won't be swayed away from my view by a "could have been" scenario, indeed by one that in my lifetime has never risen before to the best of my knowlege.

Many novelists of previous eras mentioned characters of other races, Conan Doyle, Chesterton and
Charlotte Bronte to name but three. All identified them as such. Dickens didn't.

[Montreal Wanderer]

There were few black citizen numbers of any real note in England until the Jamaican arrivals in the nineteen-fifties. From the backgounds, and also from book illustrations of the period, I'm sure Dickens envisaged no such thing or he would have stressed it.

While I am fairly certain that Dickens envisioned Nancy as Caucasian (fairly though not 100%), commie does have a point about the black population dating from Roman times and increasing under the Tudors during the great age of exploration and sail. By 1764 the number of blacks in London was estimated to be 20,000, not a trivial amount, and Dickens was writing over 75 years later. It seems highly probable that some of these people were 'ladies of the evening'. However, I do find the other evidence or lack of evidence more compelling. Had she been black, there is a fair possibility Dickens would have mentioned it as he mentioned Fagin was a Jew for example. The initial description, the disguise as Oliver's sister and other points raised make Caucasian origins likely. But I don't buy the argument about the size of the black population. Some interesting reading here.

20,000 in a city the size of London isn't a particularly huge amount, but I'll accept the point as valid and admit my own estimation was less.

Good - then we agree. I should also note that the article states the black population increased significantly in the 1780s when American blacks who had served with the British in the Revolutionary War arrived (but then diminished somewhat in an ill-fated attempt to colonize Sierra Leone in the 1790s). I could find no estimate for the 1830s.

[communistworkethic]

you're telling me it's impossible for any black woman to cake herself in thick white make-up and powder and achieve a similar result?

Yes. You're being ridiculous.

aye, reet. even after tango's given you the circumstances of said disguise, as a middle class woman, who'd have been bouffant hairded and caked in lead based make up, that's your best counter? Good one. You may not have noticed but black people come in all sorts of shades, shapes and sizes, they don't all have the skin tone of Ben Johnson.

TD, I know what you wrote and you were not as aware of the demographics as you thought, 2% of the population of London isn't that uncommon (based on MW's figure). To give it some context it's the level of Jewish people living in London now.

[TANGODANCER]

Problem solved.

[Worthy4England]

Problem solved.

knew we were right all along...

[TANGODANCER]

She's called Blanche.

[communistworkethic]

quite.

anyway as for authentic and keeping to Dickens ideas, i don't recall them all singing and dancing in the book either!

[TANGODANCER]

quite.

anyway as for authentic and keeping to Dickens ideas, i don't recall them all singing and dancing in the book either!

As you say, quite.