Brexit or Britin

[Worthy4England]

1) Any Trade Agreement where we have to put in place a bilateral that currently we piggy back on the EU's deal could be impacted.
OK, and these are? I would hazard a guess that if the UK had to piggy-back on an EU's Trade Agreement it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.

"These agreements mean that 63% of Britain’s goods exports are linked to European Union" - is a direct quote from the report that your mate Woodford is using as his basis....on page 1. So that would equate to additional customs taxes of between 12.65Bn @ 4% 6.3Bn @ 2%. If that isn't a hill of beans in your house, then you live in a bigger house than most folks. Aren't those sort of figures much bigger than a 1% increase in corporation tax - which when it was mooted by Labour was decried as anti-growth and anti-productivity agenda?

2) Some outers have complained in the past about our membership.contributions. See about 1'000 of Hoboh's posts for information...
Really? Again, I smell BS. No really - go look through Hoboh's posts - it's not hard to find. Just about anything Farrage subscribes to

Farage - Feb 8th - http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expres ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can smell all the BS you want - but if you don't think that the out campaign has ever spoke about the cost to the taxpayer of remaining in, then you've not been following it very closely. As it happens, I don't expect them to focus on this as part of their campaign - after all they'd need to produce some figures and tell us what the costs of out would look like.

3) Great, I shall follow Woodford religiously from now on...
Good. You know it makes sense.
There is a difference between recognising what someone is good at - Woodford/Fund Management - there are others...and taking their non-partisan word on a different subject as gospel. If I wanted a heart surgeon, I wouldn't visit the best dentist in the world.

4) I know that exporters hedge FX.My company does. That won't get them out of any customs duties. The two elements aren't related. At least you have a point of view that any additional customs tariffs should just be borne by the exporting companies. Bravo.
Tell me where I said the two are related. I pointed out that currency exchange rate fluctuations cause far more uncertainty than very minor tariff differences can ever do. I didn't say you said they were related. I just pointed to the fact they're not. I'm glad our exporters shouldn't worry about customs duties because FX rates are much more significant. Don't worry about the ingrowing toe nail it won't be a problem when we chop yer leg off on account of the scurvy, Really?

You may frame why we should support Brexit how you wish. I'll carry on looking at it the way I wish, thanks.

I urge you to just think a little more deeply about the lack of clarity and semblance of democratic management in the EU. Think of your children and their children and their children's children....you get the picture. You could have have won the first prize in life, but instead of wishing to remain a proud English breed All sounds a bit Lord Voldemort to me - that's not hyperbole you threw that away and instead invited slavs, arabs and indian subcontinent origin people to dilute your blood. Not to mention the French.

Now that is how you do hyperbole!

[Hoboh]

Hoboh- where do you stand on this?

Boris Johnson's staff told to toe the line on Brexit:
Email from London mayor’s chief of staff reportedly told the team to either back Johnson’s stance on the EU referendum or not openly contradict it.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really, honestly think that the Mayors office should take a neutral position on the referendum.
Granted it makes it a bit tough with Boris being Mayor and TBH I think when he got elected to parliament, or at least since he became a high profile 'outer' he should have resigned his position.

[Hoboh]

1) Any Trade Agreement where we have to put in place a bilateral that currently we piggy back on the EU's deal could be impacted.

2) Some outers have complained in the past about our contributions. See about 1'000 of Hoboh's posts for information...

3) Great, I shall follow Woodford religiously from now on...

4) I know that exporters hedge FX.My company does. That won't get them out of any customs duties. The two elements aren't related. At least you have a point of view that any additional customs tariffs should just be borne by the exporting companies. Bravo.

You may frame why we should support Brexit how you wish. I'll carry on looking at it the way I wish, thanks.

You know, reading your posts on the EU, it does come across that your main reason for staying is money related and all the rest of the political bull flies over your head.
Rubbing your hands together at the thought of 75 million, cheap to employ, Turks arriving?

Hobes, I've always said we need controlled immigration (rather than uncontrolled).But looking at immigration as a whole, rather than just an EU thing, there were still more folks emigrated to the UK from outside EU than inside it in 2014. We could set a stricter policy for non-EU immigration - ask yourself why we haven't done this? We are only subscribed to free movement of people for the EU area. So there's an area that we have control over - it's larger in volume than the number of EU migrants - yet nobody seem to mention it? Why is that? What will be the immigration policy post Brexit? No one's actually told us yet - we've been told what we could do - not what we're going to do.

Most of the rest of it, outside of migration, the UK's elected Government has signed up to - that doesn't mean you or I have individually signed up - our elected representatives have. We're bound by the results of an election even if we disagree with the party that's in control. There's little that's less democratic than a party having an overwhelming majority in parliament based on polling significantly less than half the available votes. Our parliament is equally as capable of passing stupid, unpopular legislation as the next. Again here, I assume this would involve "rolling back the EU legislation" - How are we going to change this? What are we going to do with it? "Anything we like" isn't an answer.

My main reason for staying isn't money. It's more about trading conditions. As it stands bedwetters' commentary relating to the CE report and others has some merit - at a macro-economic level the shift might not be monumental. At a sector level it could be significant (as evidenced by the report he's happy to quote as the bible). That report also acknowledges that much of the red tape may still need to be in place, the FS sector might lose it's passport etc. etc. all these elements are minimised by the report regarding their impact at a macro-economic level whilst highlighting the possibly's, maybe's and might be's at a sector level. Well yes, if my aunt had balls etc. Great for investment fund managers.

So my main beef has and shall remain that I want to know what the conditions will be outside for trade. I do also want to know what we're going to do about Immigration - set out a policy - tell folks what they're voting for.

I don't expect much of this to come out during the next few months. Rather, I expect a continuation of hyperbole, huff, bluster, accusation and name calling.

Totally agree that we need control over migration from everywhere, not just the EU block and successive governments have failed on both counts.
Business likes a cheap source of labour and the socialists like the social engineering and wet dream of multiculturalism.

People from the 'in' camp provide just as many airy fairy notions for staying as the exit camp do for leaving, my main beef is I totally mistrust any multi national or large business that look after what they perceive to be in their interests and not the interests of the people. After all these are the 1% that keep accelerating away from everyone else and I admit to being gob smacked by the workers champion Corbyn!

[bedwetter2]

1) Any Trade Agreement where we have to put in place a bilateral that currently we piggy back on the EU's deal could be impacted.
OK, and these are? I would hazard a guess that if the UK had to piggy-back on an EU's Trade Agreement it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.

"These agreements mean that 63% of Britain’s goods exports are linked to European Union" - is a direct quote from the report that your mate Woodford is using as his basis....on page 1. So that would equate to additional customs taxes of between 12.65Bn @ 4% 6.3Bn @ 2%. If that isn't a hill of beans in your house, then you live in a bigger house than most folks. Aren't those sort of figures much bigger than a 1% increase in corporation tax - which when it was mooted by Labour was decried as anti-growth and anti-productivity agenda?
Your quoted figure for UK exports linked to the EU is incorrect. Your figure includes UK exports which go via other EU countries to their final destination, e.g. ships which call into Rotterdam, trains routed via France, cargo planes routed via Schipol. Therefore your notional additional customs duties are also incorrect.

2) Some outers have complained in the past about our membership.contributions. See about 1'000 of Hoboh's posts for information...
Really? Again, I smell BS. No really - go look through Hoboh's posts - it's not hard to find. Just about anything Farrage subscribes to

Farage - Feb 8th - http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expres ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can smell all the BS you want - but if you don't think that the out campaign has ever spoke about the cost to the taxpayer of remaining in, then you've not been following it very closely. As it happens, I don't expect them to focus on this as part of their campaign - after all they'd need to produce some figures and tell us what the costs of out would look like.
I understand that others have spoken of the EU 'membership fees' and cost savings resulting, but there has been no mention of the administrative cost to individual businesses of EU imposed regulation by the 'stay-inners' because they don't want to talk about that. For example, EU directives applied to the products made by British companies are a major cost item in terms of the paperwork generated and management thereof. CE marking replaced the old British Standards system with a much more cumbersome and labour intensive compulsory (legally based, but not actually legislated for) system. As I stated before, fiscally neutral overall is how the result of a UK exit should be seen.

3) Great, I shall follow Woodford religiously from now on...
Good. You know it makes sense.
There is a difference between recognising what someone is good at - Woodford/Fund Management - there are others...and taking their non-partisan word on a different subject as gospel. If I wanted a heart surgeon, I wouldn't visit the best dentist in the world.
Without a successful UK economy fund managers and their ilk would be dead in the water in the longer term as their clients became less able to invest. It's in their interest to be based in a successful economy unless of course you believe there is some real machiavellian reason to do otherwise.

4) I know that exporters hedge FX.My company does. That won't get them out of any customs duties. The two elements aren't related. At least you have a point of view that any additional customs tariffs should just be borne by the exporting companies. Bravo.
Tell me where I said the two are related. I pointed out that currency exchange rate fluctuations cause far more uncertainty than very minor tariff differences can ever do. I didn't say you said they were related. I just pointed to the fact they're not. I'm glad our exporters shouldn't worry about customs duties because FX rates are much more significant. Don't worry about the ingrowing toe nail it won't be a problem when we chop yer leg off on account of the scurvy, Really?
Hyperbole alert, yet again. Are you always such hard work? Your illustration is really inappropriate and the wrong way around to boot - geddit? Do you think that a fluctuating rate or a stable rate are better for an exporter? A defined tariff, if he has to pay one, can be costed into the goods but a madly fluctuating exchange rate can be mitigated against by hedging but it is unlikely that variances can be completely covered by buying currency at supposedly advantageous rate ahead of the requirement.

You may frame why we should support Brexit how you wish. I'll carry on looking at it the way I wish, thanks.

I urge you to just think a little more deeply about the lack of clarity and semblance of democratic management in the EU. Think of your children and their children and their children's children....you get the picture. You could have have won the first prize in life, but instead of wishing to remain a proud English breed All sounds a bit Lord Voldemort to me - that's not hyperbole you threw that away and instead invited slavs, arabs and indian subcontinent origin people to dilute your blood. Not to mention the French.

Now that is how you do hyperbole!

I'm not familiar with this Lord. Is he your Chairman or CEO?

[Worthy4England]

Yes I'm always such hard work. Of course you on the other hand are really easy to communicate to and not at all hard work.

Let's go back to basics -

1) My quoted figure isn't my figure - it's come from a report you put in front of us. I'm happy for the outers to tell us what the number is going to be. Despite me asking this
for years - no one has yet been able to tell me. So feel free to use - you know - actual numbers...

2) Same again - which EU legislation are you going to replace whilst retaining zero tariff, free market benefits? - I can't begin to hazard a guess so I can't tell you how much it'll save...I would have thought you'd need to tell us this too - but no, not a peep.

3) Is really a non-argument - you think the report Woodford is quoting from is correct - I think it's one opinion. There are others similar and some that aren't.

4) Is going nowhere - you want to talk about FX rates, I want to talk about customs duties. At least we know that additional Customs tariffs and practices will be passed onto businesses. That's progress in terms of my understanding.

[Worthy4England]

Anyhow - as to the BoE secret report that bedwetter mentioned. It looks like Mark Carney has just upset Jacob Rees-Mogg (for which there should be some sort of reward)

Mr Carney said an exit was the biggest domestic risk to financial stability

[Beefheart]

Yes I'm always such hard work. Of course you on the other hand are really easy to communicate to and not at all hard work.

Let's go back to basics -

1) My quoted figure isn't my figure - it's come from a report you put in front of us. I'm happy for the outers to tell us what the number is going to be. Despite me asking this
for years - no one has yet been able to tell me. So feel free to use - you know - actual numbers...

2) Same again - which EU legislation are you going to replace whilst retaining zero tariff, free market benefits? - I can't begin to hazard a guess so I can't tell you how much it'll save...I would have thought you'd need to tell us this too - but no, not a peep.

3) Is really a non-argument - you think the report Woodford is quoting from is correct - I think it's one opinion. There are others similar and some that aren't.

4) Is going nowhere - you want to talk about FX rates, I want to talk about customs duties. At least we know that additional Customs tariffs and practices will be passed onto businesses. That's progress in terms of my understanding.

'This'.

[bedwetter2]

Yes I'm always such hard work. Of course you on the other hand are really easy to communicate to and not at all hard work.

Let's go back to basics -

1) My quoted figure isn't my figure - it's come from a report you put in front of us. I'm happy for the outers to tell us what the number is going to be. Despite me asking this
for years - no one has yet been able to tell me. So feel free to use - you know - actual numbers...

Try not to hurt your brain by looking for the information yourself - the 2015 figures are 44.6% of UK exports went to the EU. The exports were valued at £220bn and imports from the EU to the UK £300bn for the same period. Anually, exports from the UK to the EU have been declining since their highpoint of 55% in 2008. The EU is becoming less important as a market at the rate of 4% per annum in the last two years.

2) Same again - which EU legislation are you going to replace whilst retaining zero tariff, free market benefits? - I can't begin to hazard a guess so I can't tell you how much it'll save...I would have thought you'd need to tell us this too - but no, not a peep.
Look, by employing a bit of persistence and logic you can provide your own answers - some is even on the internet. The ONS is always a good start. Let me know how you get on.

3) Is really a non-argument - you think the report Woodford is quoting from is correct - I think it's one opinion. There are others similar and some that aren't.
If you want empirical evidence (and I'm not sure you are that stupid) for something which can at best be called an educated guess the I guess you will be disappointed by the efforts of both stay-inners and get-outers.

4) Is going nowhere - you want to talk about FX rates, I want to talk about customs duties. At least we know that additional Customs tariffs and practices will be passed onto businesses. That's progress in terms of my understanding.

Why do you just want to talk about customs duties? Read the Change or Go report from Business for Britain for an in depth study as to why the EU could not legally or practically just impose tariffs unilaterally on Britain.

[Worthy4England]

I don't need to go and do my own research - I'm voting for the status quo. You want to change that - you go look it up. Otherwise, I'll just remain in the outers don't have a clue club.

Thanks for your well thought out non-answers.

[bedwetter2]

Anyhow - as to the BoE secret report that bedwetter mentioned. It looks like Mark Carney has just upset Jacob Rees-Mogg (for which there should be some sort of reward)

Mr Carney said an exit was the biggest domestic risk to financial stability

Do you know, it was only yesterday that Jean-Claude Junker stated that a British withdrawal from the EU could trigger WW3. He believes that it is the EU that has kept the peace since WW2 and not NATO, the crazy deluded Luxembourgian. That is the level of reasoned debate which is coming to town as a result of Project "Truth" as Dave and his mates would call it. Likewise, they denied they had leant on the BCC chief who subsequently resigned. It has now emerged that a senior aide to Cameron did indeed threaten the guy in a telephone conversation. Perhaps (and I did predict the result of the BOE report would be brushed under the carpet) they also leant on Carney? The gullible will continue to believe Dave and the rest of the establishment.

[bedwetter2]

I don't need to go and do my own research - I'm voting for the status quo. You want to change that - you go look it up. Otherwise, I'll just remain in the outers don't have a clue club.

Thanks for your well thought out non-answers.

It's self-evident that you don't want to research information yourself because it may challenge your cherished view of the EU relationship. I did give you some hard facts regarding exports and you then just damned me with faint praise.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...the crazy deluded Luxembourgian...

The demonym is Luxembourger I'll have you know!
The 'crazy' and 'deluded' is perfectly acceptable.

[Worthy4England]

I guess if all you can manage is name calling, then you should at least continue to practice to see if you can get any good at it.

Never been any scaremongering from anti EU folks has there? I mean, reports of pigs needing toys to play with, ban on mushy peas, ban on firemen's poles...we've heard the lot.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Hoboh- where do you stand on this?

Boris Johnson's staff told to toe the line on Brexit:
Email from London mayor’s chief of staff reportedly told the team to either back Johnson’s stance on the EU referendum or not openly contradict it.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really, honestly think that the Mayors office should take a neutral position on the referendum.
Granted it makes it a bit tough with Boris being Mayor and TBH I think when he got elected to parliament, or at least since he became a high profile 'outer' he should have resigned his position.

I agree that he should not hold both jobs, but this is a problem of his own making. I don't think he can make himself to be one of the biggest profile outers (making numerous speeches, giving interviews etc etc) and then deny his staff the right to voice in or out.

I think saying some folk can have a public opinion and not others that hold some sort of public office is not right. As long as they state whether the opinion being stated is their own or that of their office/organisation then it is fine by me. I don't believe any of the wankers anyway

[bedwetter2]

...the crazy deluded Luxembourgian...

The demonym is Luxembourger I'll have you know!
The 'crazy' and 'deluded' is perfectly acceptable.

Yes, but somehow Luxembourgian sounds better. So that is what he is, for me, as well as being an unlikeable nice person.

[Lord Kangana]

Talk of hedging FX, a very close friend of mine lost thousands of pounds on ongoing contracts on the day that the referendum was announced because of the pound slumping due to market uncertainty. That was just one day, and just an announcement.

[Worthy4England]

Talk of hedging FX, a very close friend of mine lost thousands of pounds on ongoing contracts on the day that the referendum was announced because of the pound slumping due to market uncertainty. That was just one day, and just an announcement.

Tell your mate apparently that doesn't amount to a hill of beans...that should make him/her fell much better.

[Hoboh]

Talk of hedging FX, a very close friend of mine lost thousands of pounds on ongoing contracts on the day that the referendum was announced because of the pound slumping due to market uncertainty. That was just one day, and just an announcement.

And if he had thousands in Euros with the latest assault on the Greeks he may lose those also?

[Lord Kangana]

He or she may or may not lose under those hypothetical circumstances. They have actually lost under the ones currently being discussed.

[Hoboh]

He or she may or may not lose under those hypothetical circumstances. They have actually lost under the ones currently being discussed.

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