Shooting in Paris at satirical mag

[Worthy4England]

Ask yourself why, if they are just lone nutters as Worthy insists, they do this.

This is why I disagree strongly with Worthy's assessment that they are just nutters who happen to be Muslims. My 'understanding' is that being Muslim means carrying out the exhortataions of the Koran - and being an unbeliever in those terms is not a comfortable place to be.

I don't believe I've said they are lone nutters? Nutters yes.

I think they're organised nutters, and more aligned to the ideologies of groups like the IRA, ETA etc. I do think that this group - let me call them terrorists for arguments sake - are heavily influenced by politically motivated individuals that "help" them with their interpretation of said book. which is why I believe they're nutters who happen to be Muslims.

Fairly self evidently, not every Muslim sees the interpretation of the Koran the same way as the nutters (just as I don't see that all Catliks see the interpretation of the Bible the same way)

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Ask yourself why, if they are just lone nutters as Worthy insists, they do this.

This is why I disagree strongly with Worthy's assessment that they are just nutters who happen to be Muslims. My 'understanding' is that being Muslim means carrying out the exhortataions of the Koran - and being an unbeliever in those terms is not a comfortable place to be.

I don't believe I've said they are lone nutters? Nutters yes.

I think they're organised nutters, and more aligned to the ideologies of groups like the IRA, ETA etc. I do think that this group - let me call them terrorists for arguments sake - are heavily influenced by politically motivated individuals that "help" them with their interpretation of said book. which is why I believe they're nutters who happen to be Muslims.

Fairly self evidently, not every Muslim sees the interpretation of the Koran the same way as the nutters (just as I don't see that all Catliks see the interpretation of the Bible the same way)

The lone crept in there at the top, in the second paragraph it wasn't there. Others argue about lone nutters, I was trying to refer to your argument and therefore I apologise for the 'lone' which I accept is not your argument.
But the rest I still disagree with for the very reasons I referred to with Pru in the recent posts above. I think that, as with Pru, we've reached as close a consensus as it is possible to get - we'll just have to agree to disagree on some 'fundamental' points.

[Worthy4England]

Ask yourself why, if they are just lone nutters as Worthy insists, they do this.

This is why I disagree strongly with Worthy's assessment that they are just nutters who happen to be Muslims. My 'understanding' is that being Muslim means carrying out the exhortataions of the Koran - and being an unbeliever in those terms is not a comfortable place to be.

I don't believe I've said they are lone nutters? Nutters yes.

I think they're organised nutters, and more aligned to the ideologies of groups like the IRA, ETA etc. I do think that this group - let me call them terrorists for arguments sake - are heavily influenced by politically motivated individuals that "help" them with their interpretation of said book. which is why I believe they're nutters who happen to be Muslims.

Fairly self evidently, not every Muslim sees the interpretation of the Koran the same way as the nutters (just as I don't see that all Catliks see the interpretation of the Bible the same way)

The lone crept in there at the top, in the second paragraph it wasn't there. Others argue about lone nutters, I was trying to refer to your argument and therefore I apologise for the 'lone' which I accept is not your argument.
But the rest I still disagree with for the very reasons I referred to with Pru in the recent posts above. I think that, as with Pru, we've reached as close a consensus as it is possible to get - we'll just have to agree to disagree on some 'fundamental' points.

Indeed.

[Hoboh]

The stupidity it takes to get to the conclusion that I don't think there's a problem, given what I've posted on this over the last week, is astonishing.

I for one am not of the opinion that you don't think there is a problem. But, before we get carried away in fraternal rapture, you will probably agree that we are miles away from each other's points of view as to the cause of the trouble.

So, just so you can (potentially) understand my POV a little clearer I have a few analogues/anecdotes and scenarios to help me put it across.

1. Say, hypothetically, that your firm went on a bus trip through Northern Kenya, and it was stopped by some members of al-Shabab*. Now the usual outcome of these occurences (and they do happen, for real) is for the youths to seperate out the passengers into two lots: Muslims and non-Muslims. Ask yourself why, if they are just lone nutters as Worthy insists, they do this.
Whatever the reason is (nutters who happen to be Muslims v. people who are driven to rampaging killing because of which religion they are), you will end up dead and Amber won't. Amber won't have killed you but her religion would have.
[* in the same manner as Boko Haram - Western Education is Forbidden we can call them Al-Shabab - the Youth wing of the Islamic Courts Union ]

2. The brother of the dead policeman in Paris lumps together as a matter of course that Islamophobes, racists and right wingers are one and the same - he is wrong. It is not legitimate to be a racist. It is legitimate to be right wing, although I'm not. It is equally legitimate to be an Islamophobe, which I am, although not approved of amongst the opinion makers and intelligentsia within a liberal, secular, western democracy. Islam is an idea, a religion, not a birthright - one isn't born a Muslim because you are Arab just the same as being a white Englishman doesn't make you an Anglican (just ask Tango and thebish).
The brother of the dead policeman is subtly wrong on another point too - the people who killed his brother are not not-Muslim because they shot his (Muslim) brother. They are Muslims who happened to shoot a policeman.

3. I know that you think Amber and some fighter in the Islamic State are worlds apart: you see a sweet London girl and a psychopath and conclude that my Islamophobia is purely intolerant rantings. My trouble is that I cannot seperate out her beliefs from his.
She's a Muslim living in the west according to the doctrines and principles outlined in the Koran. The Koran does say that Muslims who live outside the ummah must obey the laws of the lands they live in. It also exhorts its followers to expand the ummah and to do this through jihad. In fact this is a sacred duty of all Muslims.
Yes there are interpretations , subtle differences of interpretation of the doctrines espoused from within the Koran, and comments on the sayings of the prophet (the Hadith) - and yes, jihad can be interpreted as a philosophical rather than a military struggle - but this brings us to the major point and that is that unlike all other religions and philosophies the Koran is the direct and unadulterated word of God - or that's what Muslims believe.
And its pretty difficult if not impossible to put peaceful interpretations of Allah stating that Muslims should "strike fear into the hearts of the unbeliever", and to "strike the neck of the unbeliever"**
[**the two strikes above are different words in Arabic, with the strike the neck having a specific meaning of to cut with a sharp blade - it cannot be reinterpreted as a strike like a match for example].
Now when God tells you to do these things it becomes a little more difficult to interpret your way out of the exhortation (if you believe in God).
So why you may be asking isn't Amber doing these things - because she's living amongst the unbelievers and because not all Muslims actually practice the Islamic Doctrine.
The trouble comes because a significant proportion of Muslims who live amongst the unbelievers wish to carry out the word of God and spread the ummah and sharia into the lands of the unbelievers and there is an even greater proportion of those who live within the ummah who wish a more fundamental practice of the doctrine (which is why they are called fundamentalists).
You're (Pru's) assertion that even the Saudis think that ISIS are nutters is no consolation - one lot is just more fundamental than the other, and all of them (even Amber , if she is a Muslim) has that sacred duty to spread Islam, through jihad, until the entire world is the ummah.

This is why I disagree strongly with Worthy's assessment that they are just nutters who happen to be Muslims. My 'understanding' is that being Muslim means carrying out the exhortataions of the Koran - and being an unbeliever in those terms is not a comfortable place to be.

We don't disagree at all on the cause of the problem, I think we agree exactly there. It's a belief in a divine actor that means moral authority is appropriated from this world into the next by an entity that cannot be questioned, and a belief that what that divine actor wants is the carrying out of some of the very nasty things that are either in, or are interpreted from things that are in, the Quran.

Where we disagree, and where you are wrong, is on the scale and absolute nature of the problem. You make claims for which you have no basis to argue they are true (such as that my friend is living in the West according to the doctrines and principles in the Quran and the then explicitly made assumption that she, like any Muslim must be definition accept everything that is said in the Quran).

Well no. The Bible incites violence against many groups of people: it says that gays, those who work on the Sabbath, those who handle pig skin, those who wear clothes make of two sorts of fabric are abominations and should be put to death. Yet you'll find those views represent the views of almost no Christians at all in the world. Muslims are just as capable of choosing the bits of the book they want to believe. Just because you've unilaterally decided that not to be true is irrelevant.

Oh, and it's "Your" .

Not seen much about bible bashers running around cities or countries murdering and raping kids and folk in general screaming God is Great, have you?
Wait until the house of Saud falls, then you will get a good idea of just how many of these crazies there really are because the rest will follow rapidly and I suspect you might be uneasy at being in the same building as Amber!

[Worthy4England]

Excellent - we were running out of reasoned debate this morning...

[Hoboh]

Saudi Arabia is remaining silent in the face of global outrage at the public flogging of the jailed blogger Raif Badawi, who received the first 50 of 1,000 lashes on Friday, part of his punishment for running a liberal website devoted to freedom of speech in the conservative kingdom
Badawi was shown on a YouTube video being beaten in a square outside a mosque in Jeddah, watched by a crowd of several hundred who shouted “Allahu Akbar” (God is great) and clapped and whistled after the flogging ended.

[Hoboh]

Surprise, surprise, comments closed on the 30 strong mob having to be evicted from the Bolton Maternity ward.
Millions of marchers have failed, free speech is still being stifled by a 'News paper' up the fat controllers ass like a suppository!
Allah Akbar!

[TANGODANCER]

Stand by for more controversy:

"Charlie Hebdo's remaining members are working on an eight page issue due to come out on Wednesday with a one-million copy print run. Its lawyer, Richard Malka, told France Info radio there would be caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad."

[Bruce Rioja]

Stand by for more controversy:

"Charlie Hebdo's remaining members are working on an eight page issue due to come out on Wednesday with a one-million copy print run. Its lawyer, Richard Malka, told France Info radio there would be caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad."

Fair play to 'em, I say. Never let these 4uckers think they've won.

1,000,000 copies? Blimey. Isn't its normal circulation around 60,000?

[Hoboh]

Stand by for more controversy:

"Charlie Hebdo's remaining members are working on an eight page issue due to come out on Wednesday with a one-million copy print run. Its lawyer, Richard Malka, told France Info radio there would be caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad."

Fair play to 'em, I say. Never let these 4uckers think they've won.

1,000,000 copies? Blimey. Isn't its normal circulation around 60,000?

I reckon they could run 2 million and still sell out, profoundly upset the French as this the idiots did their cause no good what so ever.

[Lord Kangana]

I'm guessing the cause of needless mass murder isn't exactly a flier under any circumstances.

[thebish]

Stand by for more controversy:

"Charlie Hebdo's remaining members are working on an eight page issue due to come out on Wednesday with a one-million copy print run. Its lawyer, Richard Malka, told France Info radio there would be caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad."

Fair play to 'em, I say. Never let these 4uckers think they've won.

1,000,000 copies? Blimey. Isn't its normal circulation around 60,000?

aye... strangely enough - some commentators claim they were not far off going bust - so generally uninterested were the French Public in their work... now - they will be icons of fashionable french culture for many years to come... so - well done guys - had you just ignored them and let them get on with it - the french were really not that interested - not that many people bought the mag and they may well have gone bust soon enough... way to shoot yourself in the foot...

meanwhile - the tories are eagerly jumping on the tragedy to have another go at passing their previously failed parliamentary snoopers bill...

[Hoboh]

Stand by for more controversy:

"Charlie Hebdo's remaining members are working on an eight page issue due to come out on Wednesday with a one-million copy print run. Its lawyer, Richard Malka, told France Info radio there would be caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad."

Fair play to 'em, I say. Never let these 4uckers think they've won.

1,000,000 copies? Blimey. Isn't its normal circulation around 60,000?

aye... strangely enough - some commentators claim they were not far off going bust - so generally uninterested were the French Public in their work... now - they will be icons of fashionable french culture for many years to come... so - well done guys - had you just ignored them and let them get on with it - the french were really not that interested - not that many people bought the mag and they may well have gone bust soon enough... way to shoot yourself in the foot...

meanwhile - the tories are eagerly jumping on the tragedy to have another go at passing their previously failed parliamentary snoopers bill...

I agree to a degree, bet that's shocked you

[boltonboris]

Be nice if companies like Al Jazeera showed the Arab States the solidarity in the West that the terrorists have created - Can't see it though

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... ibya-egypt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Remind me again;

There is no war between religious beliefs

[Lord Kangana]

Be nice if companies like Al Jazeera showed the Arab States the solidarity in the West that the terrorists have created - Can't see it though

I suspect they're reporting on it like everyone else. Why wouldn't they?

[Lord Kangana]

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/middle- ... ebdo-story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoboh]

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/middle- ... ebdo-story

So basically the tea lady's are threatening to go on strike

[Harry Genshaw]

Stand by for more controversy:

"Charlie Hebdo's remaining members are working on an eight page issue due to come out on Wednesday with a one-million copy print run. Its lawyer, Richard Malka, told France Info radio there would be caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad."

Interesting to read that a journalist for the magazine was sacked a few years ago for refusing to apologise after he offended the Jewish community. Is it only Muslims that it's ok to offend?

[Hoboh]

Stand by for more controversy:

"Charlie Hebdo's remaining members are working on an eight page issue due to come out on Wednesday with a one-million copy print run. Its lawyer, Richard Malka, told France Info radio there would be caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad."

Interesting to read that a journalist for the magazine was sacked a few years ago for refusing to apologise after he offended the Jewish community. Is it only Muslims that it's ok to offend?

From what I gather there isn't much of a Jewish community left in Paris now.
No they seem to have offended everyone equally so that's ok then, mind you if they didn't set out to offend people we wouldn't be commenting on the tragic events.o