bloody norah... :-(

[Harry Genshaw]

You see .... I can get my head around why this may be an issue, but it does example how these matters can be handled insensitively and lead to counter (no pun intended) reaction and things rapidly taking on a magnitude beyond it's actual merit.

I foresee Morrison's needing to find a way of backing off sooner or later.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-22689008" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This kind of thing drives me bonkers. Quite easy to see why they dont want folk who handle food wearing wrist bands. You're right though - because of what that wrist band shows support for, there'll be some manufactured outrage and Morrisons will be seen as the baddy, other than the daft git who refused to take it off and presumably ran crying to the press.

[Prufrock]

I was going to leave this subject alone, but in light of BWFC_i talking about "people who start sentences stating 'I'm not a racist, but...'" and all that implied, and Monty hinting that maybe the rozzers should be giving me a knock for what I've posted on here, and a comment by Pru which I thought was unhelpful, and a post by Il-pirate that directly accused me of being both racist and xenophobic, plus William the White stating I was spouting froth, and not least a post by Bish accusing certain posters of not addressing The Facts... In light of this I shall overnight attempt to put my argument across in a civilised, dialectical, reasoned, argument. I can do no more than that. I shall post it in the morning after I have thought it through... bet you can't wait!

Whoa. Whoa. Horses holding time. I mentioned in the light of posts, and then mentioned 6 people by name. Three of those I mentioned in relation to my own posts - specifically. Read them back, just to be sure I'm not bullshitting. Three of the names referred to other posters who had posted stuff to other posters which were not me. Those three were Bish and Bwfc-I and Pru,two of which posters who are now questioning what they said about me. The answer to that is you didn't, but your posts to other people along with the three who did specifically address mw have led me to re-engage in the debate. Ok?
And to be fair of the three that I accused of denigrating me, I may yet apologise to Monty if it I wasn't one of those he thinks whose posts incite hatred. So you see, I don't quite have the persecution complex you seem to think I might have.

Good. I'm glad you're coming back! I'm upset it took this long to get a response

[William the White]

Mmmm... don't remember describing Spotto's post as 'froth', but think it not unlikely... Doubtless proof is in the offing...

[thebish]

free the Spotto's six!!!

[TANGODANCER]

This kind of thing drives me bonkers. Quite easy to see why they dont want folk who handle food wearing wrist bands. You're right though - because of what that wrist band shows support for, there'll be some manufactured outrage and Morrisons will be seen as the baddy, other than the daft git who refused to take it off and presumably ran crying to the press.

And this makes national news headlines? That's the real problem. The guy works for a company; their rules say no wearing items when you may be handling food. What's on the items is of no consequence. Rules are rules, especially where food is concerned. He gets suspended for breaking rules then uses patriotism as an excuse? Should never have got outside the store. Me, I'd fire him and that would be the end of that.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I was going to leave this subject alone, but in light of BWFC_i talking about "people who start sentences stating 'I'm not a racist, but...'" and all that implied, and Monty hinting that maybe the rozzers should be giving me a knock for what I've posted on here, and a comment by Pru which I thought was unhelpful, and a post by Il-pirate that directly accused me of being both racist and xenophobic, plus William the White stating I was spouting froth, and not least a post by Bish accusing certain posters of not addressing The Facts... In light of this I shall overnight attempt to put my argument across in a civilised, dialectical, reasoned, argument. I can do no more than that. I shall post it in the morning after I have thought it through... bet you can't wait!

Hang on - in this regard I noted the police were tracking down and charging people who had preached hatred against an identifiable group, specifically Muslims, on the internet. My concern was actually for TW itself and perhaps a warning for our members to think before hitting 'submit'. Spotty is by no means alone in his views on TW. I must be honest and felt some of Spotty's remarks did concern me (but not him alone), but ultimately that is a problem for the mods. Further what would be illegal in Canada may be perfectly acceptable in the UK - I'm not qualified to judge.

Regarding remarks directly aimed at Spotty, I actually asked questions which he failed to answer and perhaps never saw. For example, he suggested we consider the teachings found in the Hadith. I asked whether he was referring to the Sunni Hadith or the Shiite Hadith - I gather there are significant difference in the various texts. He has not responded but it is likely in all the mud slinging it got lost.

Anyway I have basically bowed out of the debate. I find it sterile as nothing I say will change anyone's mind, and all I receive from those who disagree with me are hostile and, to my mind, scarcely rational rebuttals.

[Montreal Wanderer]

free the Spotto's six!!!

We were born free but everywhere we are in chains.

[Dujon]

I'm with you and others, TANGO. What a storm in a teacup. Most large and many small organisations have a dress code, OH&S or otherwise. In years of yore I and my colleagues were not permitted to divest ourselves of our suit coats until such time as the outside temperature exceeded 38ºC. It was uncomfortable at times (the premises were not airconditioned) but rules are rules so we sweated away. We knew what the rules were and that protesting against them after being asked to conform would result in a prompt trip to Head Office and the Staff Department. We didn't use the ghastly term of "Human Resources" in those days. So, the lad in question was silly in his actions and Morrisons had every right to reprimand him.

[Montreal Wanderer]

You see .... I can get my head around why this may be an issue, but it does example how these matters can be handled insensitively and lead to counter (no pun intended) reaction and things rapidly taking on a magnitude beyond it's actual merit.

I foresee Morrison's needing to find a way of backing off sooner or later.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-22689008" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bûm innau'n bryderus ers peth amser , fel y byddwch wedi sylwi o'm sylwadau dros yr wythnosau diwethaf.

[a1]

This kind of thing drives me bonkers. Quite easy to see why they dont want folk who handle food wearing wrist bands. You're right though - because of what that wrist band shows support for, there'll be some manufactured outrage and Morrisons will be seen as the baddy, other than the daft git who refused to take it off and presumably ran crying to the press.

he'dve bin let off if it were a Britains Got Talent one.

wouldnt be surprised if simon cowell's old skin is used in the work's dinners ,"you'll eat it , and you'll like it"

or...

like how making paper aeroplanes out of payday loan forms will now be ok at the Reebok QuickQuid Quoin Bowl .

[Montreal Wanderer]

Whooooooosh!

[bobo the clown]

You see .... I can get my head around why this may be an issue, but it does example how these matters can be handled insensitively and lead to counter (no pun intended) reaction and things rapidly taking on a magnitude beyond it's actual merit.

I foresee Morrison's needing to find a way of backing off sooner or later.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-22689008" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bûm innau'n bryderus ers peth amser , fel y byddwch wedi sylwi o'm sylwadau dros yr wythnosau diwethaf.

Mai gen I, ond "tawelu annwyl, tawelu I lawr !"

[Hoboh]

You see .... I can get my head around why this may be an issue, but it does example how these matters can be handled insensitively and lead to counter (no pun intended) reaction and things rapidly taking on a magnitude beyond it's actual merit.

I foresee Morrison's needing to find a way of backing off sooner or later.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-22689008" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This kind of thing drives me bonkers. Quite easy to see why they dont want folk who handle food wearing wrist bands. You're right though - because of what that wrist band shows support for, there'll be some manufactured outrage and Morrisons will be seen as the baddy, other than the daft git who refused to take it off and presumably ran crying to the press.

Morrison's are shite anyway so whose fussed?

Having been a couple of times to Morrison's in Bolton it maybe fear of upsetting their customer base that is behind it. You see, look at folks hands in the 'fresh' department, how many wrist watches and rings on view? No difference!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I was going to leave this subject alone, but in light of BWFC_i talking about "people who start sentences stating 'I'm not a racist, but...'" and all that implied, and Monty hinting that maybe the rozzers should be giving me a knock for what I've posted on here, and a comment by Pru which I thought was unhelpful, and a post by Il-pirate that directly accused me of being both racist and xenophobic, plus William the White stating I was spouting froth, and not least a post by Bish accusing certain posters of not addressing The Facts... In light of this I shall overnight attempt to put my argument across in a civilised, dialectical, reasoned, argument. I can do no more than that. I shall post it in the morning after I have thought it through... bet you can't wait!

Hang on - in this regard I noted the police were tracking down and charging people who had preached hatred against an identifiable group, specifically Muslims, on the internet. My concern was actually for TW itself and perhaps a warning for our members to think before hitting 'submit'. Spotty is by no means alone in his views on TW. I must be honest and felt some of Spotty's remarks did concern me (but not him alone), but ultimately that is a problem for the mods. Further what would be illegal in Canada may be perfectly acceptable in the UK - I'm not qualified to judge.

Regarding remarks directly aimed at Spotty, I actually asked questions which he failed to answer and perhaps never saw. For example, he suggested we consider the teachings found in the Hadith. I asked whether he was referring to the Sunni Hadith or the Shiite Hadith - I gather there are significant difference in the various texts. He has not responded but it is likely in all the mud slinging it got lost.

Anyway I have basically bowed out of the debate. I find it sterile as nothing I say will change anyone's mind, and all I receive from those who disagree with me are hostile and, to my mind, scarcely rational rebuttals.

First of all this is not the post I promised last night (so you still need to campaign for the Spotto Six). But to answer this directly. Yes Monty I missed your question. I was referring to both of them, both the Shia and Sunni versions, they both reveal an awful lot about Islam's attitude to the unbeliever.
As for the law getting involved, this is a debate, I think free speech is still allowed in this country, unlike in Iran say. And yes I am aware that the law regards publishing on the internet as equal to publishing by print, but there must be intent to defame, to libel, and somebody has to be defamed. I don't think anybody on here has defamed anybody. What's more the cases you referred to were about incitement, about people organising other people to 'do things'. Me, and others on here are railing against what people have 'done' - the complete opposite of why the rozzers are getting involved, don't you think.

[CrazyHorse]

I don't know why folk start or participate in threads like these. They always turn decent posters into either trolls or bumbling borderline racists.

SOTWA used to lock threads like these as soon as they were started. He knew his stuff did that fella.

[Hoboh]

I was going to leave this subject alone, but in light of BWFC_i talking about "people who start sentences stating 'I'm not a racist, but...'" and all that implied, and Monty hinting that maybe the rozzers should be giving me a knock for what I've posted on here, and a comment by Pru which I thought was unhelpful, and a post by Il-pirate that directly accused me of being both racist and xenophobic, plus William the White stating I was spouting froth, and not least a post by Bish accusing certain posters of not addressing The Facts... In light of this I shall overnight attempt to put my argument across in a civilised, dialectical, reasoned, argument. I can do no more than that. I shall post it in the morning after I have thought it through... bet you can't wait!

Hang on - in this regard I noted the police were tracking down and charging people who had preached hatred against an identifiable group, specifically Muslims, on the internet. My concern was actually for TW itself and perhaps a warning for our members to think before hitting 'submit'. Spotty is by no means alone in his views on TW. I must be honest and felt some of Spotty's remarks did concern me (but not him alone), but ultimately that is a problem for the mods. Further what would be illegal in Canada may be perfectly acceptable in the UK - I'm not qualified to judge.

Regarding remarks directly aimed at Spotty, I actually asked questions which he failed to answer and perhaps never saw. For example, he suggested we consider the teachings found in the Hadith. I asked whether he was referring to the Sunni Hadith or the Shiite Hadith - I gather there are significant difference in the various texts. He has not responded but it is likely in all the mud slinging it got lost.

Anyway I have basically bowed out of the debate. I find it sterile as nothing I say will change anyone's mind, and all I receive from those who disagree with me are hostile and, to my mind, scarcely rational rebuttals.

First of all this is not the post I promised last night (so you still need to campaign for the Spotto Six). But to answer this directly. Yes Monty I missed your question. I was referring to both of them, both the Shia and Sunni versions, they both reveal an awful lot about Islam's attitude to the unbeliever.
As for the law getting involved, this is a debate, I think free speech is still allowed in this country, unlike in Iran say. And yes I am aware that the law regards publishing on the internet as equal to publishing by print, but there must be intent to defame, to libel, and somebody has to be defamed. I don't think anybody on here has defamed anybody. What's more the cases you referred to were about incitement, about people organising other people to 'do things'. Me, and others on here are railing against what people have 'done' - the complete opposite of why the rozzers are getting involved, don't you think.

You see Cheater its plain that we all dislike people or a persons particular way of life, we should never be abusive to them but by the same score we should not be forced to like them nor accept them unconditionally. This is what narks about all the goody two shoes and social engineering.
The clergy love everyone but I ain't in that line of work.
Anyone know where I can get a Simon Cowell duvet and pillow set for that love everyone 'cause we are all human BWFCi?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...opinions aside - facts are important..

...unnecessary ill-feeling from all 'sides'.

the reflex response is going to lead to what we see here with a lot of froth and very little thought.

To start, a definition. Philosophy: a theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour

People are people. I don't give a flying fxck what language they speak, what customs they follow, what colour their skin is, or what physical appearance they display to the world. But philosophies, they are different, they are chosen by people who act upon them; even if they are deliberately inculcated by the previous generation into their children, there is still a matter of choice as to whether the philosophy is enacted or not.
Germany in the twenties, thirties, and forties was infected by a philosophy of National Socialism - it led to evil deeds. Are we saying all Germans are evil: I think not, I think what we postulate is that some Germans persuaded the vast majority of their fellow citizens to follow a philosophy that some others in the world felt was abhorrent.

So a bloke is beheaded on the streets of London, by a couple of Muslims, for purposes that they ascribe to their religion. They are converts to that religion, which means they chose it of their own free will. As they were not born to it I think it throws a spotlight on just what it is that attracts people to this philosophy, and a lot of it appears to me to be repugnant. I respond by saying I abhor Islam, and some of you on here take that to mean I abhor Muslims. As part of the ‘argument’, not that, you will note, anybody engaged me in the points I’d raised, I had racist xenophobic mud slung my way. But to get back to what I said then… you know that thing some on here claim doesn’t exist – a war by Muslims that is ongoing and widespread, prosecuted by a vast number of that religion labelled as the Religion of Peace. Just froth, William the White accused me of spouting. Well here below are some facts as asked for. This stuff has all happened since the beheading in London. It has all taken place by Muslims and in the name of Allah. You may or may not (depending upon your philosophy) be aghast…

• Thurs May 23rd Agadez, Niger. 26 killed, 63 injured (French, Niger and Mali citizens) unknown number of hostages taken. Car bombs and assault. The Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa claims responsibility.
• Thurs May 23rd Qusayr, Syria. Abu Sakkar, founder of the Farouq brigade, leads his troops into battle and repeats his message to President Assad “I swear to Allah we will eat your hearts and your livers, you soldiers of Bashar the dog”. Posted by Qusayr Islamic Media Centre. [This a few days after he was actually filmed doing precisely that, eating a person’s raw heart].
• Fri May 24th Kabul, Afghanistan. Car bomb, suicide bomber, and assault. 16 dead, unknown numbers wounded (20+) as Taleban assault the UN Agency International Organisation for Migration. Taleban claim it was their mujahideen as part of the Taliban spring offensive against Christian Crusaders.
• Fri May 24th the radical Islamic government of Sudan under Omar al-Bashir (anthem: ‘Nahnu Jund Allah’, “We are the Soldiers of God”) drop bombs from converted Antonov cargo planes on four villages north of Abyei in the Nubia Mountains. Unknown number of dead but 40+ reported.
• Sat May 25th Makhachkala, Dagestan, Russia. A female suicide bomber detonated an explosive belt killing herself and killing or injuring 12+ people including two children. Madina Alieva approached a police post in the central square before yelling “Allahu Akbar” (“God is Great”)
• Sat May 25th Tripoli, Lebanon. Fighting between Sunni Muslims and Shia and Alawite Muslims spreads from Syria into Lebanon. Dozens dead in the first few days of the extended conflict. Hezbollah (“The Party of Allah”) leadership declares that victory will be theirs.
• Sat May 25th Abdidugow and Damajale, Kenya. 6 people killed by al-Shabaab gunmen who cross the Somali-Kenya border and burn police stations. Al-Shabaab describes itself as waging jihad against "enemies of Islam",
• Sun May 26th Mombassa, Kenya. Followers of the imam Aboud Rogo involved in a shoot out with Kenyan police after they had tried to arrest a number of people on terrorism charges. 2 dead.
• Mon May 27th Baghdad, Iraq. Car bombs kill 66+ and an unknown number in the hundreds injured. At least one four year old boy killed as Sunni insurgents set off a wave of coordinated car bombs targeting Shia Muslims, whom they regard as apostates.
• Mon May 27th Makhachkala, Dagestan. Two car bombs kill at least four people and wound dozens. Responsibility claimed by the Caucasus Emirate a group fighting to establish a pan-Islamist state.


And do we forget that the only two countries in the world that still have state sponsored executions by beheading are Saudi Arabia and Iran, the leading centres and guardians of Sunni and Shia Islam.
And do we forget that in both countries harsh laws are effected by Religious Police, and that women are treated like shit in both countries – or is that OK because they aren’t ‘our’ women, living in our country, just a bunch of Arab women so it doesn’t matter?

I list the above, not because I’m leading a crusade against anything, I list the above precisely because I abhor philosophies that lead crusades against things. I fear some of you may have missed the point. It wasn’t me stood besides a headless body crying God is Great. And those of you who think that act was perpetrated by nutters or just individuals or a small minority, I think you’ll find that that small minority runs into the hundreds of thousands maybe even the millions and yes they are all individuals and maybe some of them are nutters but I think you’ll find the root cause is, like the Nazis, the philosophy they are espousing. I think you'll find Pru that the unnecessary ill feeling being generated here is by the followers of Islam. The question is what can be done about it? I fear the answer is – bugger all.

And before you dismiss all this, I can see the point that some of you are making insofar as not all muslims believe in this Caliphate business, or want to proselytise a radical version of sharia on us all, but the trouble is once an idea, a philosophy, has been hijacked by unsavoury types it is difficult repatriating that idea back to its roots. It is almost impossible when the roots of that philosophy are actually based on conquest as the Arab Caliphate and the spread of Islam was, and utterly impossible when murderous impulses are released just because somebody writes a book or draws a cartoon that might be a little insulting to those of a very sensitive nature who inhabit this philosophy…

And just to spell it out I have no fellow feeling for the potato head that held up the placard reading sport are troops. I abhor his view. I have no truck with their philosophy either. I am a nemesis to the ghost of National Socialism in all its forms and guises. But for feck sake to denounce one doesn’t mean you can’t denounce the other. National Socialism and Islam share the same failings. Both are assailing our society.

[thebish]

I hope you feel better now.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I hope you feel better now.

Strangely enough, I don't.

[thebish]

I hope you feel better now.

Strangely enough, I don't.

that's a shame