Freedman out!

[Enoch]

I firmly believe that a decent manager or one with half a clue, could train, discipline and organize a group of average players and finish in the top six of a shite league like this one. I would also suggest we have a couple of players that given the right setup are above the average and could have pushed on for a top two-spot.

Entirely possible.

You need a plan A and a plan B and someone with the nuance as when to switch either via shape or via subs, IMHO Freedman fails on all counts.

You may well be correct.

Our defending is atrocious at times yet the manager goes chasing Mids or forwards, the first victory in any game is not to lose and build on that, which means a solid well protected defence.

I agree completely with your point, however, I have absolutely no idea which defenders Freedman has or hasn't tried to bring in this season. Other than Baptiste, Tierney and McNaughton. Though I have heard a few other names bandied about.

Look at Terry at Chelsea, everyone reckoned he was finished but this season is turning out to be one of his best for a couple of years, why, he has no pace and is vulnerable to players running but he is protected from that unlike our super tanker centre halves.

We have a centre half that gets vilified on here regularly. I watched him at QPR and honestly thought he didn't put a foot wrong. I also noticed on another fan site he was voted MoM at Ipswich, though I didn't see the game and for all I know that might not be the case. Not sure what the relevance of that is.

All this has feck all to do with FFP or Eddies lost cash, it is about what a managers primary task is about and Freedman is failing, he should just go.

This is where I truly struggle. I imagine Eddie Davies has the ultimate say as to whether or not Freedman is doing the job he's employed to do. What discussions Davies has with Gartside and Gartside has with Freedman I haven't the foggiest. For all I know he may be doing exactly what's asked of him.

As a fan I always prefer when we are enjoying success on the pitch, but I've come to understand that there are highs and lows. I don't happen to think it's as straightforward as we're having a shit season so sweep the decks and start again.

People that have made their minds up about Freedman may well be right, just as they may be wrong. If I were a gambling man I'd back the out camp. That's simply because a football managers life expectancy in his job is such, the ins have virtually no chance of being proved right.

I like that everyone has a view, though I would think it nice if the atmosphere on here were less caustic at times. I noticed on the 'Should Duggie be sacked?' poll, 52% voted no. I think it's sad that posting lately doesn't reflect that, but the moderate voice appears to have gone into it's shell. I can only wonder why that is!

[Enoch]

Fair play Enoch, just wondered as you were quite dismissive of some of the Dougie out posts.
I can't be arsed to look back over old posts which is why I asked.

You're welcome.

[BWFC_Insane]

I firmly believe that a decent manager or one with half a clue, could train, discipline and organize a group of average players and finish in the top six of a shite league like this one. I would also suggest we have a couple of players that given the right setup are above the average and could have pushed on for a top two-spot.

Entirely possible.

You need a plan A and a plan B and someone with the nuance as when to switch either via shape or via subs, IMHO Freedman fails on all counts.

You may well be correct.

Our defending is atrocious at times yet the manager goes chasing Mids or forwards, the first victory in any game is not to lose and build on that, which means a solid well protected defence.

I agree completely with your point, however, I have absolutely no idea which defenders Freedman has or hasn't tried to bring in this season. Other than Baptiste, Tierney and McNaughton. Though I have heard a few other names bandied about.

Look at Terry at Chelsea, everyone reckoned he was finished but this season is turning out to be one of his best for a couple of years, why, he has no pace and is vulnerable to players running but he is protected from that unlike our super tanker centre halves.

We have a centre half that gets vilified on here regularly. I watched him at QPR and honestly thought he didn't put a foot wrong. I also noticed on another fan site he was voted MoM at Ipswich, though I didn't see the game and for all I know that might not be the case. Not sure what the relevance of that is.

All this has feck all to do with FFP or Eddies lost cash, it is about what a managers primary task is about and Freedman is failing, he should just go.

This is where I truly struggle. I imagine Eddie Davies has the ultimate say as to whether or not Freedman is doing the job he's employed to do. What discussions Davies has with Gartside and Gartside has with Freedman I haven't the foggiest. For all I know he may be doing exactly what's asked of him.

As a fan I always prefer when we are enjoying success on the pitch, but I've come to understand that there are highs and lows. I don't happen to think it's as straightforward as we're having a shit season so sweep the decks and start again.

People that have made their minds up about Freedman may well be right, just as they may be wrong. If I were a gambling man I'd back the out camp. That's simply because a football managers life expectancy in his job is such, the ins have virtually no chance of being proved right.

I like that everyone has a view, though I would think it nice if the atmosphere on here were less caustic at times. I noticed on the 'Should Duggie be sacked?' poll, 52% voted no. I think it's sad that posting lately doesn't reflect that, but the moderate voice appears to have gone into it's shell. I can only wonder why that is!

Agree with that Enoch. The results aren't good enough. However, that isn't isolated to this season. Results haven't been good enough since we lost 5-0 to Stoke. It goes back that far. Possibly further depending how you look at things. So this isn't a club that has upwardly mobile momentum thwarted by a bad manager. This is a club that has been on the slide for years. I know that people like to view things as "we have these players and we should therefore be in X position", but clubs that get on these long downward spirals take a fair old time to bottom out. And the fact it has happened to so many suggests that it isn't a click your fingers job to put right.

The other backdrop is the financial position. People see that as an excuse, but it isn't excusing where we are now, but merely showing us the immediate future of the club, next season and thereafter. It is one of little spending, of bringing through young players, of needs must and probably of struggle in this league and quite possibly lower. So the point is that future managers are going to be looking at that and quite possibly not fancying it, especially when that likelihood is paired against a recent backdrop of premiership football and success that has raised fans expectations. I imagine it is considerably easier to manage a club where they have gotten used to their predicament.

[bobo the clown]

I imagine Eddie Davies has the ultimate say as to whether or not Freedman is doing the job he's employed to do .... For all I know he may be doing exactly what's asked of him.

... it would think it nice if the atmosphere on here were less caustic at times. I noticed on the 'Should Duggie be sacked?' poll, 52% voted no. I think it's sad that posting lately doesn't reflect that, but the moderate voice appears to have gone into it's shell.

Well argued Enoch and particularly regarding that Eddie Davies, who has the most to lose, must have a broader picture than any of us. But he has shown previously as inclined to be slow to wield the axe. An admirable trait in general, to be fair.

Regarding the poll here, I think I'm right in saying that the vast majority of the "keep" camp were looking at "can be afford to pay him off", "is this the right time" or "who else is there" rather than out & out support.

Caustic isn't a surprise when things are going wrong, but yes, it's destructive.

I don't see how DF can turn it around other than a genuine & sustained period of positive results. He's certainly turned me, after 50+ years of watching, want not to. That's some achievement.

I've seen worse times, but never seen the crash so clearly played out right in front of my eyes.

[BWFC_Insane]

I imagine Eddie Davies has the ultimate say as to whether or not Freedman is doing the job he's employed to do .... For all I know he may be doing exactly what's asked of him.

... it would think it nice if the atmosphere on here were less caustic at times. I noticed on the 'Should Duggie be sacked?' poll, 52% voted no. I think it's sad that posting lately doesn't reflect that, but the moderate voice appears to have gone into it's shell.

Well argued Enoch and particularly regarding that Eddie Davies, who has the most to lose, must have a broader picture than any of us. But he has shown previously as inclined to be slow to wield the axe. An admirable trait in general, to be fair.

Regarding the poll here, I think I'm right in saying that the vast majority of the "keep" camp were looking at "can be afford to pay him off", "is this the right time" or "who else is there" rather than out & out support.

Caustic isn't a surprise when things are going wrong, but yes, it's destructive.

I don't see how DF can turn it around other than a genuine & sustained period of positive results. He's certainly turned me, after 50+ years of watching, want not to. That's some achievement.

I've seen worse times, but never seen the crash so clearly played out right in front of my eyes.

But to be fair, Freedman is clearly responsible for this season's abomination. But the "crash" as you put it, is not really his fault. As I say we've been in decline for a number of seasons, arguably since Allardyce left, arguably since the semi final. The crash was always very likely once we exited the premiership, if we look at the history of such things. Perhaps exiting the top flight was an inevitability, but I still think we could have hung in there a bit longer and with the extra TV money the Premiership got the year after we went down, who knows?

[Enoch]

Regarding the poll here, I think I'm right in saying that the vast majority of the "keep" camp were looking at "can be afford to pay him off", "is this the right time" or "who else is there" rather than out & out support.

This I understand, though for the record I didn't join in. It's perfectly possible to hold one of those views and remain moderate. I haven't completed a head count, I did however get the sense that more folk voted than passed comment. Maybe someone will wish to clear that one up?!

I don't see how DF can turn it around other than a genuine & sustained period of positive results. He's certainly turned me, after 50+ years of watching, want not to. That's some achievement.

I would never assert that Freedman, nor anyone else for that matter, is about to achieve something in particular, I'm shit at prediction. At the same time I accept that anything is possible and whatever is said on here, history shows that Freedman is actually capable of turning it round. No suggestion there that he will.

I've seen worse times, but never seen the crash so clearly played out right in front of my eyes.

Time will tell on this, but things have a way of looking better when looking back (especially at your age!).

[bobo the clown]

No insane-one, what I mean is that I've seen us slide but rarely ... well, I think never ... have I actually witnessed, knowingly, the mistakes and failings and consequences so clearly, so obviously.

Yes, since the day Sam decided he needed a rest (10 days, wasn't it ?) we've been sliding Probably since the day he didn't get the England job, or when he claims he wasn't backed in the transfer market ... maybe since the day of the Panorama programme.

But previously it's sort if happened and I have realised & reacted after the event or right at the time of an event. This time I can see it happening and can see the errors and the consequences some way ahead. That's why I describe it as a slow-motion car-crash. I'm watching it, yet can do nothing about it.



.... & Enoch, you cheeky twunk, I maybe wasn't as well informed last time we crashed. It's not my black-tinted spec's.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Freedman buggers about with the starting line up

How many changes did he make for the Ipswich game?

[Lord Kangana]

1 game. C'mon, you're falling into the trap you accuse other of doing.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

1 game. C'mon, you're falling into the trap you accuse other of doing.

One game indeed, but the most recent one. Is he changing? I sure hope the results do.

What trap's that, by the way? Don't get all coy now.

[boltonboris]

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

but he's sorta brought that on himself

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

but he's sorta brought that on himself

Very much so, Boris. I'm no (longer a) Freedman defender, but I'd also like the level of discussion on here to remain high, even if the points return doesn't. The idea that he picks the sides in advance has been done to death and would appear to sit very weirdly with the fact that he only made one change to the XI for two tough trips in four days.

As others have noted, there's a lot of people on here who aren't clamouring for the axe, but I doubt there's any of us who aren't at all worried.

[Lord Kangana]

1 game. C'mon, you're falling into the trap you accuse other of doing.

One game indeed, but the most recent one. Is he changing? I sure hope the results do.

What trap's that, by the way? Don't get all coy now.

I'm sure you're familiar with the parable of the wise men and the elephants. Besides, you got Pru's point when he said (rather conveniently!) that we mustn't take everything literally. The broad theme of hoboh's post is pretty well established.

[BWFC_Insane]

No insane-one, what I mean is that I've seen us slide but rarely ... well, I think never ... have I actually witnessed, knowingly, the mistakes and failings and consequences so clearly, so obviously.

Yes, since the day Sam decided he needed a rest (10 days, wasn't it ?) we've been sliding Probably since the day he didn't get the England job, or when he claims he wasn't backed in the transfer market ... maybe since the day of the Panorama programme.

But previously it's sort if happened and I have realised & reacted after the event or right at the time of an event. This time I can see it happening and can see the errors and the consequences some way ahead. That's why I describe it as a slow-motion car-crash. I'm watching it, yet can do nothing about it.



.... & Enoch, you cheeky twunk, I maybe wasn't as well informed last time we crashed. It's not my black-tinted spec's.

That happened for me, when Coyle was here, I could see what was going to happen and although labelled a doom merchant at the time, I did sort of say I was worried this was where we'd end up or worse. So I know what you mean.

But IMO the damage has been done, the horse has bolted the stable and we are where we are. There is no shoving everything back in and locking the door.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I'm sure you're familiar with the parable of the wise men and the elephants.

Nope. Google tells me there's one about blind men. Go for it, we can have Lordkangananory. Why stop posting now? You seem to be more intelligent than muttered asides.

Besides, you got Pru's point when he said (rather conveniently!) that we mustn't take everything literally.

That was, IIRC, about verbatim quotes. Hobo was saying Freedman always chops-and-changes the team. Judging by last week, it's not always true. Let's hope not, if it's what situations need.

The broad theme of hoboh's post is pretty well established.

Indeed, very very well established, by a few very vocal posters whose opinions the polls show don't represent anything like that strong a majority. I just occasionally pipe up in an attempt to point out inconsistencies, which appears to make people think I've got Freedman's face tattooed on my torso. Such is the blind binary nature of much internet discussion, but I'd rather hope it could be better on here.

I'll say again that Freedman is doing a worryingly terrible job. But the howling at the moon and the dancing round the bonfire is beginning to really dick me off.

[Lord Kangana]

Your second point is contradictory though. Pru's point was to understand the nuance. The nuance of hoboh's post would be taken, not literally, as "he changes it an awful lot, doesn't he". The answer to that would be a firm yes. He does.

[jaffka]

What's this about picking his team in advance?

[SmokinFrazier]

Agree with that Enoch. The results aren't good enough. However, that isn't isolated to this season. Results haven't been good enough since we lost 5-0 to Stoke. It goes back that far. Possibly further depending how you look at things. So this isn't a club that has upwardly mobile momentum thwarted by a bad manager. This is a club that has been on the slide for years. I know that people like to view things as "we have these players and we should therefore be in X position", but clubs that get on these long downward spirals take a fair old time to bottom out. And the fact it has happened to so many suggests that it isn't a click your fingers job to put right.

That is true but it doesn't excuse the poor management we've seen from Freedman. Every club who gets relegated will spend a period of time thinking 'it all went wrong starting here, it's going to be ages before we regroup, things have to get worse before they get better' but that sort of argument simply isn't true. I was reading a Fulham forum last night to see what their fans think of Muelensteen and there were plenty of negative comments along the lines of what you're saying but if they do get relegated, there's no reason why they can't bounce straight back up. Win the first couple of games in the Championship and everything is rosy again because your fans start thinking about promotion, even if it is premature. Some clubs do take years to recover, absolutely, but then look at West Ham, Newcastle or QPR this season. Their fans will have all thought, just like you do, that the club was on a slippery slope and yet they bounced straight back. The key difference between teams who react well to those who continue to decline is good management; not just tactics but man management and an ability to instill confidence and belief.

There was absolutely no reason why we couldn't have got promoted last year. There's no reason we couldn't have got promoted this year either. Had we had a Redknapp or an Allardyce in charge, I firmly believe we'd be in the top 5 now and rather than talking about how we're on some steep, slippery slope, we'd all be getting excited about the possibility of playing Arsenal, City, United and Chelsea next year, and thinking about the possibilities of bringing in £10-15m players. Not every club who goes down is doomed to a fate like Leeds, Southampton or Wolves, and there's no reason we should be one of them when we could, under could management, have been a QPR, Newcastle or West Ham.

[BWFC_Insane]

That is true but it doesn't excuse the poor management we've seen from Freedman. Every club who gets relegated will spend a period of time thinking 'it all went wrong starting here, it's going to be ages before we regroup, things have to get worse before they get better' but that sort of argument simply isn't true. I was reading a Fulham forum last night to see what their fans think of Muelensteen and there were plenty of negative comments along the lines of what you're saying but if they do get relegated, there's no reason why they can't bounce straight back up. Win the first couple of games in the Championship and everything is rosy again because your fans start thinking about promotion, even if it is premature. Some clubs do take years to recover, absolutely, but then look at West Ham, Newcastle or QPR this season. Their fans will have all thought, just like you do, that the club was on a slippery slope and yet they bounced straight back. The key difference between teams who react well to those who continue to decline is good management; not just tactics but man management and an ability to instill confidence and belief.

There was absolutely no reason why we couldn't have got promoted last year. There's no reason we couldn't have got promoted this year either. Had we had a Redknapp or an Allardyce in charge, I firmly believe we'd be in the top 5 now and rather than talking about how we're on some steep, slippery slope, we'd all be getting excited about the possibility of playing Arsenal, City, United and Chelsea next year, and thinking about the possibilities of bringing in £10-15m players. Not every club who goes down is doomed to a fate like Leeds, Southampton or Wolves, and there's no reason we should be one of them when we could, under could management, have been a QPR, Newcastle or West Ham.

Well there are far more examples of clubs that continue to struggle and slip further down.

And personally I don't see that we are in any way analagous to Newcastle (huge fan base and relative to ourselves rich) or money-bags QPR.

The thing is that there aren't that many examples, and even fewer when you look at relatively small clubs like ourselves that have had prolonged periods in the top flight.

And it is quite possible that with an established top manager like Allardyce or Redknapp we'd be doing better. But we couldn't have that sort of manager, because money!

[bobo the clown]

What's this about picking his team in advance?

Well, that would require us quoting him which, apparently is either open to interpretation, or unfair, or both. Certainly not neither.