Summer Holidays

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Glad you had a good time Pru.

[William the White]

Back from a week in Valencia. It was 28 degrees when I left. It was ten when I arrived in Bolton.

Valencia is a great city. Atmospheric Old Town area. Amazing modern architecture - google City of Arts and Sciences for a taste of this. Three great beaches. Brilliant food from small cafes and bars. We visited five galleries - there were more we couldn't find time for. Will post more detail on the Art thread if I'm up to it.

But best, really, was just the sunshine. And missing the Leeds match.

[bobo the clown]

Back from a week in Valencia. It was 28 degrees when I left. It was ten when I arrived in Bolton.

Valencia is a great city. Atmospheric Old Town area. Amazing modern architecture - google City of Arts and Sciences for a taste of this. Three great beaches. Brilliant food from small cafes and bars. We visited five galleries - there were more we couldn't find time for. Will post more detail on the Art thread if I'm up to it.

But best, really, was just the sunshine. And missing the Leeds match.

Thhe only problem is ... & it IS a beautiful city ... that it was funded by dreams and wishes.


ValenciaPopulation: 5.1 million
Debt: 20.8bn euros in 2011
'Cultural envy' sparks spending race

In July, Valencia became the first region to ask for money from the central government's rescue fund.

One of the most financially troubled regions, Valencia's name has become particularly associated with white elephant construction projects - a problem across the country.

The Castellon airport, opened in March 2011, has yet to receive a single commercial flight.

And critics see the sprawling City of Arts and Sciences - a gleaming complex which was inaugurated in 1998 and added to over 15 years - as a symbol of excess, which they say went three times over budget.


Otherwise, lovely jubbly.

[William the White]

Back from a week in Valencia. It was 28 degrees when I left. It was ten when I arrived in Bolton.

Valencia is a great city. Atmospheric Old Town area. Amazing modern architecture - google City of Arts and Sciences for a taste of this. Three great beaches. Brilliant food from small cafes and bars. We visited five galleries - there were more we couldn't find time for. Will post more detail on the Art thread if I'm up to it.

But best, really, was just the sunshine. And missing the Leeds match.

Thhe only problem is ... & it IS a beautiful city ... that it was funded by dreams and wishes.


ValenciaPopulation: 5.1 million
Debt: 20.8bn euros in 2011
'Cultural envy' sparks spending race

In July, Valencia became the first region to ask for money from the central government's rescue fund.

One of the most financially troubled regions, Valencia's name has become particularly associated with white elephant construction projects - a problem across the country.

The Castellon airport, opened in March 2011, has yet to receive a single commercial flight.

And critics see the sprawling City of Arts and Sciences - a gleaming complex which was inaugurated in 1998 and added to over 15 years - as a symbol of excess, which they say went three times over budget.


Otherwise, lovely jubbly.

Thank you for this - this seems to me absolutely accurate... Breathtaking architecture, absolutely brilliant - City too small to use it properly... We were saying this to each other as we strolled through the underpopulated complex last Saturday... When seven customers at the restaurant of the Arts Palace were outnumbered by staff ( who must surely be fearful for their jobs!).

In the UK I think only London could find a way of using this kind of complex, (though given the issues with the Millenium dome even that is questionable)... with Glasgow as an outside possibility...

Given the glowing whiteness of the complex 'white elephant' seems like an appropriate description... The Artes building - stunning, stunning, stunning... was advertising an Opera Programme of six weeks in total for the months October-April... And nothing else, so far as we could see... This for a venue with two spaces seating 1800 and one 400...

BTW - I don't think Valencia as a city is anywhere near 5.1 mill population - certainly didn't feel anything remotely like that... Is the figure actually for Valencia region? And Castellon is not Valencia!

Valencia's airport is busy - but not as much as Alicante's serving the Benidorm experience...

[Montreal Wanderer]

Back from a week in Valencia. It was 28 degrees when I left. It was ten when I arrived in Bolton.

Valencia is a great city. Atmospheric Old Town area. Amazing modern architecture - google City of Arts and Sciences for a taste of this. Three great beaches. Brilliant food from small cafes and bars. We visited five galleries - there were more we couldn't find time for. Will post more detail on the Art thread if I'm up to it.

But best, really, was just the sunshine. And missing the Leeds match.

Thhe only problem is ... & it IS a beautiful city ... that it was funded by dreams and wishes.


ValenciaPopulation: 5.1 million
Debt: 20.8bn euros in 2011
'Cultural envy' sparks spending race

In July, Valencia became the first region to ask for money from the central government's rescue fund.

One of the most financially troubled regions, Valencia's name has become particularly associated with white elephant construction projects - a problem across the country.

The Castellon airport, opened in March 2011, has yet to receive a single commercial flight.

And critics see the sprawling City of Arts and Sciences - a gleaming complex which was inaugurated in 1998 and added to over 15 years - as a symbol of excess, which they say went three times over budget.


Otherwise, lovely jubbly.

Thank you for this - this seems to me absolutely accurate... Breathtaking architecture, absolutely brilliant - City too small to use it properly... We were saying this to each other as we strolled through the underpopulated complex last Saturday... When seven customers at the restaurant of the Arts Palace were outnumbered by staff ( who must surely be fearful for their jobs!).

In the UK I think only London could find a way of using this kind of complex, (though given the issues with the Millenium dome even that is questionable)... with Glasgow as an outside possibility...

Given the glowing whiteness of the complex 'white elephant' seems like an appropriate description... The Artes building - stunning, stunning, stunning... was advertising an Opera Programme of six weeks in total for the months October-April... And nothing else, so far as we could see... This for a venue with two spaces seating 1800 and one 400...

BTW - I don't think Valencia as a city is anywhere near 5.1 mill population - certainly didn't feel anything remotely like that... Is the figure actually for Valencia region? And Castellon is not Valencia!

Valencia's airport is busy - but not as much as Alicante's serving the Benidorm experience...

From wikipedia:

Valencia is also Spain's third largest metropolitan area, with a population ranging from 1.7 to 2.5 million.

[bobo the clown]

Apologies if the population figure is wrong. If do then the region/city debt of €3, 500m in 2011 is massively higher per capita so makes matters worse.

The point remains that the money spent on prestige projects was simply never available. It seems that this may be the result of blind optimism along with overblown regional pride fueled by the never ending regional competitiveness there. Encouraged by lax European Union funding support it is now a huge and unsupportable folly.

Spain isn't in the shit accidentally.

Still,. it's nice to see if you can turn your eyes from the reality of the situation.

[Lord Kangana]

Don't see what the EU has to do with Valencia City Council's spending decisions. If you skim the issue, you'll conclude that the whole of Spain is f*cked. But if you delve a little deeper, you'll find calls for Catalan Independence being fuelled by the fact the region (and its not alone, there are others) has remained both solvent and prosperous. Perhaps that is all down to lax EU funding support too?

[bobo the clown]

A great deal of the infrastructure spending was encouraged by matched spending from the EU. That was never properly reviewed or audited.

I must say that I find an enormous contradiction in the push for an ever larger and more centrally controlled EU whilst that very thing seems to encourage and enbolden mini-nationalism by the very same people who like the idea of the monolith.

Maybe it's just me.

[Lord Kangana]

I think its just you who's managed to conclude that from the above post.

[William the White]

A great deal of the infrastructure spending was encouraged by matched spending from the EU. That was never properly reviewed or audited.

I must say that I find an enormous contradiction in the push for an ever larger and more centrally controlled EU whilst that very thing seems to encourage and enbolden mini-nationalism by the very same people who like the idea of the monolith.

Maybe it's just me.

I'm not arguing, but, simply as a matter of fact, was this the case in funding the City of Arts and Sciences?

[William the White]

A great deal of the infrastructure spending was encouraged by matched spending from the EU. That was never properly reviewed or audited.

I must say that I find an enormous contradiction in the push for an ever larger and more centrally controlled EU whilst that very thing seems to encourage and enbolden mini-nationalism by the very same people who like the idea of the monolith.

Maybe it's just me.

I'm not arguing, but, simply as a matter of fact, was this the case in funding the City of Arts and Sciences?

I've now tried to research the funding for the project and can't find anything suggesting EU money was involved. Do you actually know differently, bobo, or did you just make it up?

[Lord Kangana]

Theres this William..

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/cou ... &gv_defL=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[William the White]

Theres this William..

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/cou ... &gv_defL=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, LK. None of that seems to relate to the City of Arts and Sciences project. I'm sure bobo will illuminate all eventually.

[bobo the clown]

Theres this William..
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/cou ... &gv_defL=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, LK. None of that seems to relate to the City of Arts and Sciences project. I'm sure bobo will illuminate all eventually.

Guys, I was merely pointing out that beautiful and amazing as Valencia is this beauty was the result of gross misspending.

I was told of the EU money by a friend from Barcelona ... but maybe I'm wrong. In which case the city fathers of Valencia were even more astounding in their profligacy. I do believe it to have been in receipt of EU funding for some of it's infrastructure overspending however.

When Spain joined the euro its 17 regional governments had access to cheap money, and wanted to spend to attract the international tourist business. Fierce competition between cities drove up fees. Billions were lavished on theme parks, museums and art galleries. Every city had to have a lavish university, and be connected by an expensive network of high-speed trains. Politicians were under pressure to outspend each other, and Valencia was determined to outspend everybody.

With debts of nearly 21 billion euros, a public deficit of 4.5 per cent of local GDP, and junk status awarded by credit rating agencies, Valencia was the first of Spain’s 17 autonomous regions to ask for a bailout from a special fund set up by the central government to help stricken regions refinance their debts. It is seeking 4.5 billion euros.

In searching however I noted that Catalonia is €42bn in debt. Go Catalonia's great success !!!

Valencia, Spain's third biggest city, is so mired in debt that last week it had to turn to Madrid for a €2 billion bailout - setting a precedent for other Spanish regions.

Within days Murcia region had followed suit and much larger Catalonia, which is €42 billion in debt, is likely to do so shortly. Between them, Spain's 17 regions owe an estimated €140 billion. The dawning realisation of what this could mean for Madrid's own debt problem has driven Spanish borrowing charges to a dangerous new high, and raised new fears about the entire country's need for an EU bailout.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... young.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... -woes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lord Kangana]

I suspect bobo, because of your politics, that you won't be as critical of The Thatcher Government diverting EU funds destined for the North East (because it qualified being one of the most deprived regions in Europe, not just Britain) to central government coffers, partly to fund tax cuts.

[William the White]

From wikipedia:

Valencia is also Spain's third largest metropolitan area, with a population ranging from 1.7 to 2.5 million.

2012 population of the City - as opposed to Met District or province - is 797,028.

That's what it 'felt' like.

[bobo the clown]

I suspect bobo, because of your politics, that you won't be as critical of The Thatcher Government diverting EU funds destined for the North East (because it qualified being one of the most deprived regions in Europe, not just Britain) to central government coffers, partly to fund tax cuts.

When I go on holiday there I'll let you know !!


Truth is, yes I would, if it's as simple as you put it. They ought not to have done that ... nor should the EEC have allowed them to get away with it.

[Lord Kangana]

As with all politics, the law is hand-in-glove. They managed (successfully) to argue that it being in Britain, it was up to the British Government to spend it how they wished.

[William the White]

I think I'm mostly in agreement about the profligacy of the prestige projects that many Spanish cities went in for as they chased the 'Bilbao effect' whereby the building of the Guggenheim museum made a tourist destination of what had been a grim industrial/post-industrial city. I've already said we found the Arts and Sciences complex short of activity.

Profligate right wing parties have rightly been criticised by the opposition Izquierda Unida for greed and corruption as they went in for these at the cost of social well being.

I'm not in agreement about criticism of infrastructure projects - like the rail system which puts ours to shame and will contribute to economic well being long after the crisis has passed.

[Bijou Bob]

Now, how do I post that Ive just got back from a remarkable trip to Transylvania without creating an economic debate like WtW then??

I can heartily recommend it for anyone who likes to do something a little more adventurous. Some fascinating history, great walking, nature and food and its the cheapest place Ive ever been. I spent 34 quid last week during 7 nights holiday, despite drinking large amounts of vintage port most evenings and beer with lunch every day.

I was that impressed, I'm more than happy to give the couple running the holiday a plug on here and a hearty recommendation - http://www.secrettransylvania.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (No, I'm not related!)

Not a great holiday for dog lovers, there are hundreds of 'street dogs' everywhere you look, or for veggies as the noise from the village slaughterer sorting out bacon for the next morning's breakfast was rather unpleasant. Loved every minute and even considering a trip in February back to the same place to 'do' the ice hotel, some sledging and more bear/wolf watching.