creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:14 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:33 pm
Crawley had one good knock in 4. The other three he was averaging about 7. Because of his age, I'd persevere a bit yet. Not sure I'm being too harsh.

Similar with Curran in terms of perseverance,I'd stick with him for a while, he's had better series though. I always struggle in my mind to determine which mainstream bowler to leave out for him and I have a similar wrestle on which batter I'd leave out. He's not a must have all-rounder either at the mo.

Buttler as I said previously, Bairstow would have to show some form to displace him and/or Foakes. Might be tempted to give one or other a go in next series (as it's pretty impossible to show form in CC at the moment). Telly box just put a graphic up of batsmen since 2019, from today's team, all averaging <45 until you get to Jos...20, but I think both he and Bairstow have more than a touch of flat track bully about 'em.
Yeah all fair enough. Curran took 3 wickets in his one match and he takes crucial wickets (Hope for example). I like him - he bowls at an average of 31.8 in tests - which isn't bad at all. But he just seems to have a knack of taking a wicket here or there when everyone else is struggling. I agree its hard to see who you'd leave out for him. But he also averages 27 with the bat at test level. Woakes who is probably as it stands ahead of Curran - is similar though on 25.6.

Crawley is in fairness not yet proven so perhaps he hasn't done enough yet but I think worth sticking with him given lack of other options and he seems right age.

As for Buttler vs Bairstow - I honestly think it just depends on the role for the WK/Batsman - I'd rather mainly have Buttler if batting at 6/7. I think in many situations he has the better tools for that role. But clearly if you want a higher order batter - Bairstow by miles - if he can find a way to stop being bowled.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:14 pm

I reckon the shoo-ins at the moment are: Burns, Sibley, Root, Stokes, Anderson, Broad and Archer. I'd probably keep Pope at the mo. I need a bit of spin, so I pick from Bess/Leach (Not sure that's a great choice), so I'm left with two spots to fill from Wood, Foakes, Curran, Buttler, Bairstow, Crawley at that point it's all looking a bit "sameish"

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:50 pm

I'd say Pope is shoo-in for me too at the moment, he looks the real deal and I think an engine room of Root, Stokes, Pope is genuinely exciting.

There are a lot of moving parts. Not too long ago you'd have said Crawley or Denley or similar had to play because Root was our best batsman and you needed to protect him from the new ball as he was almost without fail heading out to bat within half an hour. Now the top two look much more solid and it's arguably Stokes you want to protect.

I don't think Leach will ever be the answer whereas Bess might so I'd be tempted to persevere with him for a fair bit yet, give him a solid run.

The counter I guess would be to drop Crawley and bump the rest of the batters up one for Woakes/Curran who both average 25+ with the bat. Think is Stokes is always going to want to bowl and it's tempting to give it to him the way he is playing. Then you look bowler heavy for me.

So, I still think: Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler, Bess, Archer, Broad, Anderson is our best team.

There might be an element of horses for courses. In English/New Zealand conditions or up on the velds you might go for an all seam attack with Woakes/Curran for Bess. Seems likely tha tin Autralia they'll rotate the bowlers with Wood in there as well.

I don't know about the sub-continent. Do you trust Root to be a second spinner where needed?
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:32 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:50 pm
I'd say Pope is shoo-in for me too at the moment, he looks the real deal and I think an engine room of Root, Stokes, Pope is genuinely exciting.

There are a lot of moving parts. Not too long ago you'd have said Crawley or Denley or similar had to play because Root was our best batsman and you needed to protect him from the new ball as he was almost without fail heading out to bat within half an hour. Now the top two look much more solid and it's arguably Stokes you want to protect.

I don't think Leach will ever be the answer whereas Bess might so I'd be tempted to persevere with him for a fair bit yet, give him a solid run.

The counter I guess would be to drop Crawley and bump the rest of the batters up one for Woakes/Curran who both average 25+ with the bat. Think is Stokes is always going to want to bowl and it's tempting to give it to him the way he is playing. Then you look bowler heavy for me.

So, I still think: Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler, Bess, Archer, Broad, Anderson is our best team.

There might be an element of horses for courses. In English/New Zealand conditions or up on the velds you might go for an all seam attack with Woakes/Curran for Bess. Seems likely tha tin Autralia they'll rotate the bowlers with Wood in there as well.

I don't know about the sub-continent. Do you trust Root to be a second spinner where needed?
Sub continent Jennings has to come back into contention surely. Burns / Sibley haven’t convinced against spin yet for different reasons, while Jennings has 2 tons on the subcontinent. His propensity to struggle against the moving new ball over here won’t be an issue. I’d consider him at 3 over winter, with Root, Stokes, Pope behind him. I also wonder whether Moeen will come back into the fold at some point.

On Bess, at the moment he seems like a holding spinner at best. He did well in SA supporting the quicks and keeping it tight for long spells, but I wouldn’t back him to win you many games. Not sure he’s the right option for the winter.

It’s an interesting time - we have the skeleton of a good side for the first time in a while, and discussion about the options for those other spots places feels a lot more positive than previous ‘he’s shit but there’s no one else’.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:32 pm

jimbo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:32 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:50 pm
I'd say Pope is shoo-in for me too at the moment, he looks the real deal and I think an engine room of Root, Stokes, Pope is genuinely exciting.

There are a lot of moving parts. Not too long ago you'd have said Crawley or Denley or similar had to play because Root was our best batsman and you needed to protect him from the new ball as he was almost without fail heading out to bat within half an hour. Now the top two look much more solid and it's arguably Stokes you want to protect.

I don't think Leach will ever be the answer whereas Bess might so I'd be tempted to persevere with him for a fair bit yet, give him a solid run.

The counter I guess would be to drop Crawley and bump the rest of the batters up one for Woakes/Curran who both average 25+ with the bat. Think is Stokes is always going to want to bowl and it's tempting to give it to him the way he is playing. Then you look bowler heavy for me.

So, I still think: Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler, Bess, Archer, Broad, Anderson is our best team.

There might be an element of horses for courses. In English/New Zealand conditions or up on the velds you might go for an all seam attack with Woakes/Curran for Bess. Seems likely tha tin Autralia they'll rotate the bowlers with Wood in there as well.

I don't know about the sub-continent. Do you trust Root to be a second spinner where needed?
Sub continent Jennings has to come back into contention surely. Burns / Sibley haven’t convinced against spin yet for different reasons, while Jennings has 2 tons on the subcontinent. His propensity to struggle against the moving new ball over here won’t be an issue. I’d consider him at 3 over winter, with Root, Stokes, Pope behind him. I also wonder whether Moeen will come back into the fold at some point.

On Bess, at the moment he seems like a holding spinner at best. He did well in SA supporting the quicks and keeping it tight for long spells, but I wouldn’t back him to win you many games. Not sure he’s the right option for the winter.

It’s an interesting time - we have the skeleton of a good side for the first time in a while, and discussion about the options for those other spots places feels a lot more positive than previous ‘he’s shit but there’s no one else’.
Yeah but India have a great seam attack right now and supposedly are changing their pitches to suit. I’d not bring Jennings back. Just not the way forward imo.

I think Pru’s team is pretty good. But then I look at Bess and think - surely Moeen Ali has to have a chance still?

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:12 pm

jimbo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:32 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:50 pm
I'd say Pope is shoo-in for me too at the moment, he looks the real deal and I think an engine room of Root, Stokes, Pope is genuinely exciting.

There are a lot of moving parts. Not too long ago you'd have said Crawley or Denley or similar had to play because Root was our best batsman and you needed to protect him from the new ball as he was almost without fail heading out to bat within half an hour. Now the top two look much more solid and it's arguably Stokes you want to protect.

I don't think Leach will ever be the answer whereas Bess might so I'd be tempted to persevere with him for a fair bit yet, give him a solid run.

The counter I guess would be to drop Crawley and bump the rest of the batters up one for Woakes/Curran who both average 25+ with the bat. Think is Stokes is always going to want to bowl and it's tempting to give it to him the way he is playing. Then you look bowler heavy for me.

So, I still think: Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler, Bess, Archer, Broad, Anderson is our best team.

There might be an element of horses for courses. In English/New Zealand conditions or up on the velds you might go for an all seam attack with Woakes/Curran for Bess. Seems likely tha tin Autralia they'll rotate the bowlers with Wood in there as well.

I don't know about the sub-continent. Do you trust Root to be a second spinner where needed?
Sub continent Jennings has to come back into contention surely. Burns / Sibley haven’t convinced against spin yet for different reasons, while Jennings has 2 tons on the subcontinent. His propensity to struggle against the moving new ball over here won’t be an issue. I’d consider him at 3 over winter, with Root, Stokes, Pope behind him. I also wonder whether Moeen will come back into the fold at some point.

On Bess, at the moment he seems like a holding spinner at best. He did well in SA supporting the quicks and keeping it tight for long spells, but I wouldn’t back him to win you many games. Not sure he’s the right option for the winter.

It’s an interesting time - we have the skeleton of a good side for the first time in a while, and discussion about the options for those other spots places feels a lot more positive than previous ‘he’s shit but there’s no one else’.
I guess on Jennings, it depends on what the selection is trying to achieve - if it's "the best for the tour" then maybe he (and potentially Moeen) come back into contention. If it's "batting practice for the Ashes" then maybe not.

Generally, I think we should probably pick the best team for the tour, but, depending on how Burns and Sibley do against Pakistan, it might be difficult to drop them. Whilst we say they're not convincing against spin, their averages are their averages against all bowling. I know Ashwin is a different proposition than Roston Chase, but Ashwin and Nathan Taylor aren't that far apart - so if you're going to go with Burns and Sibley for the Ashes, then maybe they need to play against more spin prior to the Ashes Tour.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:17 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:12 pm
jimbo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:32 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:50 pm
I'd say Pope is shoo-in for me too at the moment, he looks the real deal and I think an engine room of Root, Stokes, Pope is genuinely exciting.

There are a lot of moving parts. Not too long ago you'd have said Crawley or Denley or similar had to play because Root was our best batsman and you needed to protect him from the new ball as he was almost without fail heading out to bat within half an hour. Now the top two look much more solid and it's arguably Stokes you want to protect.

I don't think Leach will ever be the answer whereas Bess might so I'd be tempted to persevere with him for a fair bit yet, give him a solid run.

The counter I guess would be to drop Crawley and bump the rest of the batters up one for Woakes/Curran who both average 25+ with the bat. Think is Stokes is always going to want to bowl and it's tempting to give it to him the way he is playing. Then you look bowler heavy for me.

So, I still think: Burns, Sibley, Crawley, Root, Stokes, Pope, Buttler, Bess, Archer, Broad, Anderson is our best team.

There might be an element of horses for courses. In English/New Zealand conditions or up on the velds you might go for an all seam attack with Woakes/Curran for Bess. Seems likely tha tin Autralia they'll rotate the bowlers with Wood in there as well.

I don't know about the sub-continent. Do you trust Root to be a second spinner where needed?
Sub continent Jennings has to come back into contention surely. Burns / Sibley haven’t convinced against spin yet for different reasons, while Jennings has 2 tons on the subcontinent. His propensity to struggle against the moving new ball over here won’t be an issue. I’d consider him at 3 over winter, with Root, Stokes, Pope behind him. I also wonder whether Moeen will come back into the fold at some point.

On Bess, at the moment he seems like a holding spinner at best. He did well in SA supporting the quicks and keeping it tight for long spells, but I wouldn’t back him to win you many games. Not sure he’s the right option for the winter.

It’s an interesting time - we have the skeleton of a good side for the first time in a while, and discussion about the options for those other spots places feels a lot more positive than previous ‘he’s shit but there’s no one else’.
I guess on Jennings, it depends on what the selection is trying to achieve - if it's "the best for the tour" then maybe he (and potentially Moeen) come back into contention. If it's "batting practice for the Ashes" then maybe not.

Generally, I think we should probably pick the best team for the tour, but, depending on how Burns and Sibley do against Pakistan, it might be difficult to drop them. Whilst we say they're not convincing against spin, their averages are their averages against all bowling. I know Ashwin is a different proposition than Roston Chase, but Ashwin and Nathan Taylor aren't that far apart - so if you're going to go with Burns and Sibley for the Ashes, then maybe they need to play against more spin prior to the Ashes Tour.
I’m sure I read that Jennings averages 16 against pace compared with 46 against spin in his test career. His 2 tons have come on the subcontinent as well. If you’re picking a squad to win over there, he has to be considered. Agreed though we seem to rightly or wrongly exist in Ashes cycles. Sibley and Burns have earned their place for now, but need to improve against spin. I’d personally start Jennings at number 3 over there and see how that goes.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:07 pm

It still feels like we're a batter short, certainly, but for me, Jennings feels like back to the Ballance/Vince/Anyone treadmill. Another way to look at his 2 tons is he's scored 30 odd percent of his test match runs in 2 innings :-). On a similar basis you'd probably pick Foakes too as he averaged about 45 v Sri Lanka...

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:15 am

Huh. Didn't realise Pakistan test started today (yesterday). Good platform for Pakistan after day 1...

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:39 pm

Just to add to Mr Buttler's misdemeanours, he's dropping catches and missing stumpings too, now! He has some leeway in this as he's a batsman who can keep. But we can't keep arguing he's No 1 keeper when he gets no runs and he's an important batsman when he's having a mare behind the stumps...

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:52 pm

326...more than I would have hoped, less than I feared overnight - could've been much better if catches and stumpings hadn't gone awry!

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:22 pm

Fightback isn't going well!!
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:25 pm

Oh dearie, dearie me....

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:56 am

When can we talk about Joe Root - both as a batsman and a captain?

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:58 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:56 am
When can we talk about Joe Root - both as a batsman and a captain?
When would you like to talk about Joe Root?

Averaged 43 V West Indies, 45 against South Africa, 76 against New Zealand...he did dip around 2018 to mid to late 30's...but we're sort of past that bit now. His last 3 series he's scored 700 runs in 13 innings...at an average of over 50...

Captain - I'm less sure of, on a session by session basis, but since becoming captain, we've won 7 series, lost 4 - bit of a mixed bag...I'm less sure who we'd replace him with at this juncture?

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:34 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:58 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:56 am
When can we talk about Joe Root - both as a batsman and a captain?
When would you like to talk about Joe Root?

Averaged 43 V West Indies, 45 against South Africa, 76 against New Zealand...he did dip around 2018 to mid to late 30's...but we're sort of past that bit now. His last 3 series he's scored 700 runs in 13 innings...at an average of over 50...

Captain - I'm less sure of, on a session by session basis, but since becoming captain, we've won 7 series, lost 4 - bit of a mixed bag...I'm less sure who we'd replace him with at this juncture?
That average is distorted by his one score this summer and he was not out as he declared....

His scores....22,23,68*,17,14.

Now. It’s not awful but I’d guess his batting since being captain has been short of where it was. I’m not for dropping Root. I’m just not sure he’s a very good captain - yesterday his captaincy was awful - and maybe he might bat better with pressure off?

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:26 pm

I don't think this is going to last much longer!
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:10 pm

The benefits of a good spinner are being seen here......

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:30 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:34 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:58 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:56 am
When can we talk about Joe Root - both as a batsman and a captain?
When would you like to talk about Joe Root?

Averaged 43 V West Indies, 45 against South Africa, 76 against New Zealand...he did dip around 2018 to mid to late 30's...but we're sort of past that bit now. His last 3 series he's scored 700 runs in 13 innings...at an average of over 50...

Captain - I'm less sure of, on a session by session basis, but since becoming captain, we've won 7 series, lost 4 - bit of a mixed bag...I'm less sure who we'd replace him with at this juncture?
That average is distorted by his one score this summer and he was not out as he declared....

His scores....22,23,68*,17,14.

Now. It’s not awful but I’d guess his batting since being captain has been short of where it was. I’m not for dropping Root. I’m just not sure he’s a very good captain - yesterday his captaincy was awful - and maybe he might bat better with pressure off?
It is short of what it was, but still around the 40 mark as skipper. I'd be happy with him giving the captaincy over to focus on his batting, but I'm not sure who to at the moment. Stokesy hardly covered himself in glory as a captain. If I look at the current team, there isn't another name that sticks out as being a replacement and a few you almost certainly wouldn't burden with it.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:56 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:30 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:34 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:58 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:56 am
When can we talk about Joe Root - both as a batsman and a captain?
When would you like to talk about Joe Root?

Averaged 43 V West Indies, 45 against South Africa, 76 against New Zealand...he did dip around 2018 to mid to late 30's...but we're sort of past that bit now. His last 3 series he's scored 700 runs in 13 innings...at an average of over 50...

Captain - I'm less sure of, on a session by session basis, but since becoming captain, we've won 7 series, lost 4 - bit of a mixed bag...I'm less sure who we'd replace him with at this juncture?
That average is distorted by his one score this summer and he was not out as he declared....

His scores....22,23,68*,17,14.

Now. It’s not awful but I’d guess his batting since being captain has been short of where it was. I’m not for dropping Root. I’m just not sure he’s a very good captain - yesterday his captaincy was awful - and maybe he might bat better with pressure off?
It is short of what it was, but still around the 40 mark as skipper. I'd be happy with him giving the captaincy over to focus on his batting, but I'm not sure who to at the moment. Stokesy hardly covered himself in glory as a captain. If I look at the current team, there isn't another name that sticks out as being a replacement and a few you almost certainly wouldn't burden with it.
Its a problem for sure.....bowlers have probably missed their window for captaincy. Stokes as you say...but.....yeah not easy.
I don't think Root is a very good captain though - he seems to have mad periods where, as per yesterday afternoon he just makes crazy decisions.

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