The wonderful EU and Migration thread!

[Hoboh]

I knew you'd dismiss concerns about the economic realities of us leaving as scaremongering! Though I'm sure you thought the economic questions were legitimate when it came to the Scottish independence referendum. Funny that.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with regards to the spending habits of young people. You seem to think consumption in the economy is driven by the older generation, then seem to have a problem with the younger generation spending as much as they apparently do?

Scottish independence, I didn't give a fig over, all that I wanted was a clean break and for Scotland to re-apply to join the EU as an independent state, complete with the Euro and to stop Salmond/Sturgeons wet dreams of piggybacking independence on the rest of us!
The consumption in the economy is being kept going to an extent by us oldies paying to bail out the younger ones because they waste so fcukin' much. I should have thought that was simple to understand from a materialistic youth point of view!

[Beefheart]

I knew you'd dismiss concerns about the economic realities of us leaving as scaremongering! Though I'm sure you thought the economic questions were legitimate when it came to the Scottish independence referendum. Funny that.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with regards to the spending habits of young people. You seem to think consumption in the economy is driven by the older generation, then seem to have a problem with the younger generation spending as much as they apparently do?

Scottish independence, I didn't give a fig over, all that I wanted was a clean break and for Scotland to re-apply to join the EU as an independent state, complete with the Euro and to stop Salmond/Sturgeons wet dreams of piggybacking independence on the rest of us!
The consumption in the economy is being kept going to an extent by us oldies paying to bail out the younger ones because they waste so fcukin' much. I should have thought that was simple to understand from a materialistic youth point of view!

You'll have to talk me through that one. The formula for national income is Y=C+I+G+(X-M) as I'm sure you know.

The C is the consumption part, that's household expenditure. We can come to the other letters later.

Your assertion is that a large part of that is coming from the older generations, that they're spending money (causing an increase in C). This makes sense given the fact that old people tend to have more money to spend!

However, you then go on to assert that they're spending this money to, presumably unconsciously, prop up consumption in the economy to 'bail out' the younger generations because they feel they are spending too much money on iphones, which is somehow bad for consumption?

Presumably you think they should save more and spend less (causing a decrease in C), further placing the burden of consumption on the older generation?

Yet, you would also like to see an increase in interest rates to benefit savers. Predominately the older generation. This would also lead to a fall in consumption.

I have to say that Hobonomics is certainly an interesting new branch of economic theory. I think my brain has just exploded.

[thebish]

You cannot tell me what they would be after exit so whose talking bollocks? The same? More? Less? Or are you privy to all behind the scenes negotiations that have not taken place yet?
Bollocks!

hmm - even for you, Hoboh, that's daft!!

the Europe IN camp, surely, must focus on what staying IN offers - that is what they are trying to persuade us to vote for - and Worthy has given you the exact numbers.

it is up to the Europe OUTERS to tell us what the offer is if we take up their invitation to vote OUT...

can you not simply say - "I don't know, it's a massive gamble, but one I think you should take, cross your fingers..." - at least that would be honest and up front!

[Hoboh]

You cannot tell me what they would be after exit so whose talking bollocks? The same? More? Less? Or are you privy to all behind the scenes negotiations that have not taken place yet?
Bollocks!

hmm - even for you, Hoboh, that's daft!!

the Europe IN camp, surely, must focus on what staying IN offers - that is what they are trying to persuade us to vote for - and Worthy has given you the exact numbers.

it is up to the Europe OUTERS to tell us what the offer is if we take up their invitation to vote OUT...

can you not simply say - "I don't know, it's a massive gamble, but one I think you should take, cross your fingers..." - at least that would be honest and up front!

The point is,
No one knows with any certainty except of course the Europhiles, the ones who conveniently never mention the current EU wide problems and how that is going to reflect upon a hell of a lot of things.
It is fine stating what the current position is (in their view anyway) but things are changing dramatically and any UK position to influence anything is minor.

[thebish]

You cannot tell me what they would be after exit so whose talking bollocks? The same? More? Less? Or are you privy to all behind the scenes negotiations that have not taken place yet?
Bollocks!

hmm - even for you, Hoboh, that's daft!!

the Europe IN camp, surely, must focus on what staying IN offers - that is what they are trying to persuade us to vote for - and Worthy has given you the exact numbers.

it is up to the Europe OUTERS to tell us what the offer is if we take up their invitation to vote OUT...

can you not simply say - "I don't know, it's a massive gamble, but one I think you should take, cross your fingers..." - at least that would be honest and up front!

The point is,
No one knows with any certainty except of course the Europhiles, the ones who conveniently never mention the current EU wide problems and how that is going to reflect upon a hell of a lot of things.
It is fine stating what the current position is (in their view anyway) but things are changing dramatically and any UK position to influence anything is minor.

aye - nobody knows....

so - your case is:

Vote to leave - we don't know what will happen - cross your fingers?

[Worthy4England]

You cannot tell me what they would be after exit so whose talking bollocks? The same? More? Less? Or are you privy to all behind the scenes negotiations that have not taken place yet? Bollocks!

Talk about missing the point - I don't have to tell you what they are going to be post exit - I'm probably not going to vote for exit and I know what they are now.

I don't recall saying they'd be higher or lower - I suspect they'd be higher because unlike the happy clappy "let's all be little Englanders" camp, I don't believe we're holding the aces in any negotiation - BUT and this is fairly important to me, I don't know. So I'm waiting for you lot to tell me. Doubt it'll happen though.

That really takes the biscuit - We all want you to leave, it'll be much better, but we can't tell you how it'll look, so you tell us....Fcuk me. Snake Oil shares are going to do a great trade over the next 4 months. I think I'll put some money into that...

So bollocks back at you. With knobs on.

[Worthy4England]

You cannot tell me what they would be after exit so whose talking bollocks? The same? More? Less? Or are you privy to all behind the scenes negotiations that have not taken place yet?
Bollocks!

hmm - even for you, Hoboh, that's daft!!

the Europe IN camp, surely, must focus on what staying IN offers - that is what they are trying to persuade us to vote for - and Worthy has given you the exact numbers.

it is up to the Europe OUTERS to tell us what the offer is if we take up their invitation to vote OUT...

can you not simply say - "I don't know, it's a massive gamble, but one I think you should take, cross your fingers..." - at least that would be honest and up front!

The point is,
No one knows with any certainty except of course the Europhiles, the ones who conveniently never mention the current EU wide problems and how that is going to reflect upon a hell of a lot of things.
It is fine stating what the current position is (in their view anyway) but things are changing dramatically and any UK position to influence anything is minor.

The conversation we've been having about trading terms aren't "in their view anyway" - they're all written down in TARIC for EU....

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/cu ... dex_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And WTO database for non-EU

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/ta ... data_e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They exist - like actually...really, real...

But of course the Brexit group would have known that as it's fairly fundamental to their economic arguments...

[Prufrock]

Aye, nothing is on fire, it's all pretty much fine. If you're going to persuade people to leave then you're going to need to make the case that it will be better. If all you've got is "who knows, it might be better, it might be worse" no-one is going to chance it.

[Worthy4England]

Aye, nothing is on fire, it's all pretty much fine. If you're going to persuade people to leave then you're going to need to make the case that it will be better. If all you've got is "who knows, it might be better, it might be worse" no-one is going to chance it.

Well no - apparently with Hoboh in charge - you've got "You tell us, you're the ones that don't want to leave"...

[Prufrock]

It's not just Hoboh!

[Worthy4England]

It's not just Hoboh!

Indeed - it is actually much wider than Hoboh...Hoboh just reads it somewhere, recants it partially/incorrectly with his own bizzare spin and still doesn't answer the question...

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/f ... efugees-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The fall out has already started!

The real reason the EU is useless and dangerous, division and the inability to speak as one, to try to paper over cracks and differences between 28 member states.

Already divided over what to do about mass immigration, the EU faces further fragmentation as governments rush to impose national border controls from central Europe down to the Balkans, leaving Greece as the entry and end point for many migrants entering the EU from Turkey.
After Austria’s decision last week to allow in no more than 80 asylum seekers daily, Slovenia is following suit and sending troops to its frontier with Croatia, while Belgium announced new border controls with France this week.

Whose going to fire the first shots I wonder?

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/f ... udi-arabia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MEPs have voted for a European Union-wide arms embargo against Saudi Arabia to protest against the Gulf state’s heavy bombing campaign in Yemen.

The European parliament voted by a large majority for an EU-wide ban on arms sales to the kingdom, citing the “disastrous humanitarian situation” as a result of “Saudi-led military intervention in Yemen”.

The vote does not compel EU member states to act but it does increase pressure on Riyadh, in the wake of criticism from the UN and growing international alarm over civilian casualties in Yemen.

Ah, the toothless democratic arm of the EU speaks!

You know the ones we get to vote for!

[Beefheart]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/f ... udi-arabia

MEPs have voted for a European Union-wide arms embargo against Saudi Arabia to protest against the Gulf state’s heavy bombing campaign in Yemen.

The European parliament voted by a large majority for an EU-wide ban on arms sales to the kingdom, citing the “disastrous humanitarian situation” as a result of “Saudi-led military intervention in Yemen”.

The vote does not compel EU member states to act but it does increase pressure on Riyadh, in the wake of criticism from the UN and growing international alarm over civilian casualties in Yemen.

So have they got too much power or not enough?
Ah, the toothless democratic arm of the EU speaks!

You know the ones we get to vote for!

[thebish]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/f ... udi-arabia

MEPs have voted for a European Union-wide arms embargo against Saudi Arabia to protest against the Gulf state’s heavy bombing campaign in Yemen.

The European parliament voted by a large majority for an EU-wide ban on arms sales to the kingdom, citing the “disastrous humanitarian situation” as a result of “Saudi-led military intervention in Yemen”.

The vote does not compel EU member states to act but it does increase pressure on Riyadh, in the wake of criticism from the UN and growing international alarm over civilian casualties in Yemen.

Ah, the toothless democratic arm of the EU speaks!

You know the ones we get to vote for!

give it a rest FFS!!! you already know it'll be gone soon!

[bedwetter2]

So far there has been a lot of wind and piss on this thread about the economic effects of exiting or staying in the EU.

There has been very little unbiased research conducted by independent organisations which have no vested interest in putting their own "gloss" on the findings.

There are two pieces of research which I have been made aware of recently:

Neil Woodford of Woodford Investment Management commissioned a number of financial research bureaus to analyse what would happen to the British economy, the currency and interest rates in the event of a British exit from the EU. The outcome of this research predicted a neutral outcome with little changing. A short term currency rate fall would quickly correct itself. Trading would continue as before.

The second piece of research is a little more covert because it has been carried out by the BOE as part of the preparations prior to the referendum. The research contradicts what Cameron has stated about the negative effects of an exit from the EU. The research largely endorses the Woodford research but further states that the longer term effects of exit will provide greater opportunities for trade. This information has not been published and is unlikely to be prior to the referendum. I gained the information from a person who works at the bank but values his career too much to provide more than basic detail.

Make of it what you wish.

[Prufrock]

I'm f*cking sold!

[Hoboh]

So far there has been a lot of wind and piss on this thread about the economic effects of exiting or staying in the EU.

There has been very little unbiased research conducted by independent organisations which have no vested interest in putting their own "gloss" on the findings.

There are two pieces of research which I have been made aware of recently:

Neil Woodford of Woodford Investment Management commissioned a number of financial research bureaus to analyse what would happen to the British economy, the currency and interest rates in the event of a British exit from the EU. The outcome of this research predicted a neutral outcome with little changing. A short term currency rate fall would quickly correct itself. Trading would continue as before.

The second piece of research is a little more covert because it has been carried out by the BOE as part of the preparations prior to the referendum. The research contradicts what Cameron has stated about the negative effects of an exit from the EU. The research largely endorses the Woodford research but further states that the longer term effects of exit will provide greater opportunities for trade. This information has not been published and is unlikely to be prior to the referendum. I gained the information from a person who works at the bank but values his career too much to provide more than basic detail.

Make of it what you wish.

Thank God someone's just taken the economics out of the debate, now we can get down to the real crux of the matter, a federal United States of Europe run from Brussels with the Germans mainly calling the shots or sovereign country that will remain free to control who comes in and what laws it wants. A county that doesn't have to listen to city sized nations like Latvia nor push cash into backwater nations like Bulgaria, Romania, to name a few, nor even contemplate sitting in a mock parliment alongside a terrorist state like Turkey.

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ublic.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The man who is the typical Europhile.

A bastard who should be chucked in a cell and the key thrown away!

Is there anything to do with the EU that the chumps that govern/run it isn't based on deceiving the public?

[Worthy4England]

Thank God someone's just taken the economics out of the debate.

Fear not. We'll put them back.