Muslims, racists, individuals and attitudes.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Not getting into the homeless thing, it's too undefined and complex. As for Jesus being homeless I agree that the statue's sole point is that it is representative of the vulnerable and to draw preoples' attention to that fact (the view of its sculptor/creator) as between twelve and thirty no one knows what Jesus did beyond being a carpenters son and possibly a carpenter himself so specualtion is pointless anyway.

There are actually some people who even find it insulting to leave Jesus ( the statue) out in the rain. I feel a bit sorry for their intelligence actually, although my own didn't include knowing what sofa-surfing was till today.

Personally, (My flippant previous comments aside) I do feel that to have a statue from just one faith in our multicultural society, would be an affront to those from other faiths and possibly likely to promote further divisions.

Not being an expert in these matters, I was under the impression that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet (the last before Mohammed) and that Jews considered him to be a Rabbi. There might be some discussion about his paternity and the use of graven images, but I'm not sure the just one faith argument is valid.

[Worthy4England]

I'm thinking there are a lot of parks...wouldn't you just spend the money on trying to alleviate the actual problem?

[TANGODANCER]

Personally, (My flippant previous comments aside) I do feel that to have a statue from just one faith in our multicultural society, would be an affront to those from other faiths and possibly likely to promote further divisions.

Last December (happily) we had the Nativity crib displayed and lit up on Bolton Town Hall square for the first time in years. It drew lots of attention and offended no one. Yes, this is in a very muticultural town with a large Muslim population. Why should the Jesus statue offend anyone in a town where mosques abound? There's no indication it actually did anything except promote a Christmas atmosphere along with the ice rink, trees and fairy lights all around it.

[Prufrock]

Not getting into the homeless thing, it's too undefined and complex. As for Jesus being homeless I agree that the statue's sole point is that it is representative of the vulnerable and to draw preoples' attention to that fact (the view of its sculptor/creator) as between twelve and thirty no one knows what Jesus did beyond being a carpenters son and possibly a carpenter himself so specualtion is pointless anyway.

There are actually some people who even find it insulting to leave Jesus ( the statue) out in the rain. I feel a bit sorry for their intelligence actually, although my own didn't include knowing what sofa-surfing was till today.

Personally, (My flippant previous comments aside) I do feel that to have a statue from just one faith in our multicultural society, would be an affront to those from other faiths and possibly likely to promote further divisions.

Nah, man. It's not like the state it's paying for it. If they want to spend a shit-ton of their own cash putting up status of Jesus on a bench, let 'em.

As Worthy says, they might be better off spending the presumably not inconsiderable cash on actually helping homeless people, but why let a good opportunity for proselytizing go by.

[Prufrock]

Is there any suggestion that the victims in those cases were only in it for a cash pay out?

If, as you suggested, the girl and family were only in it for the pay off, it would have gone away. There's no conviction without her testimony and there's been no suggestion anyone else has come forward.

I've haven't suggested anything of the sort!

She got into it through an obsession with Adam Johnson. Her family didn't know.

I'm not sure saying her family's first thought was to profit from it is nothing of the sort, but ok.

If the family's first thought was to profit, it would have gone away.There's no conviction without her testimony and there's been no suggestion anyone else has come forward.

[Lord Kangana]

You've said the girl and her family were in it for profit. They didn't know! How could they have been in it for profit?!

Profiting from chaos is not the same as premeditating a scheme. They ballsed it up when they finally found out.

[Prufrock]

Eh? I slightly misquoted you first time (and granted there is a difference between getting into it for profit and later trying to turn it for profit once you find out) and then quoted you. They're your words! I don't think they were trying to "profit". If they had been, 500k would have ended up in their account and suddenly sure she wouldn't have remembered what happened.

[Lord Kangana]

As I say, they my understanding of it, as explained to me, is that they ballsed it up - either by thinking they could threaten Johnson with the police, hoping to drop the charges (which of course, with the current atmosphere the police were never going to just let it lie), or that they did threaten Johnson and he told them to go stick it. Either way, their instinct was to profit from chaos.

[Bijou Bob]

Either way, it's pure conjecture, made up by apologists and may have no bearing in fact. I suspect it doesn't.

[Lord Kangana]

Of course it may have no bearing in fact, though it doesn't come from an apologist.

[Prufrock]

The police would have had to let it lie. Without her testimony there was no prospect of conviction at all. And whilst Johnson doesn't strike me as particularly bright I don't think he was thick enough to think he'd risk it given he ended up playing guilty to one of the charges.

I'm sure that it's how it was explained to you, but I reckon it's balls! Every time there is a case like this it doesn't take long before "rumours" start going round that she was a bit of a strumpet anyway. See Evans, Ched.

[Lord Kangana]

Indeed. Sadly the alleged "evidence" (for apparently there was some recording that surfaced on youtube a while ago of a drunken conversation) has quite rightly been removed. I haven't seen it, I can't even say it existed, so I'm not going to defend it. I don't know, and certainly with the way Johnson's sister has been acting on twitter (no I don't read it, but I can't completely avoid it and have a good many friends from the North East who keep posting the salacious details on Facebook) it could quite easily originate from her poison pen.

[thebish]

Not getting into the homeless thing, it's too undefined and complex. As for Jesus being homeless I agree that the statue's sole point is that it is representative of the vulnerable and to draw preoples' attention to that fact (the view of its sculptor/creator) as between twelve and thirty no one knows what Jesus did beyond being a carpenters son and possibly a carpenter himself so specualtion is pointless anyway.

There are actually some people who even find it insulting to leave Jesus ( the statue) out in the rain. I feel a bit sorry for their intelligence actually, although my own didn't include knowing what sofa-surfing was till today.

Personally, (My flippant previous comments aside) I do feel that to have a statue from just one faith in our multicultural society, would be an affront to those from other faiths and possibly likely to promote further divisions.

Nah, man. It's not like the state it's paying for it. If they want to spend a shit-ton of their own cash putting up status of Jesus on a bench, let 'em.

As Worthy says, they might be better off spending the presumably not inconsiderable cash on actually helping homeless people, but why let a good opportunity for proselytizing go by.

or - you could think a bit more imaginatively about the potential effect of art on people and their lives... I have been quite a bit involved in various bits of work with homeless people over the years and my experience tells me that the money from making a sculpture of Jesus on a bench isn't going to make a difference... (not that the church ISN'T spending cash on the homeless - most food banks are set up by and/or in churches and voluntarily staffed by church people) - but it is at least possible, isn't it, that inspirational art has the potential to change attitudes in the general public... i don't know whether this particular scuplture will or won't do that - but surely that's one function of art in public spaces...

my experience of working amongst the homeless is that attitudes are a bigger problem than simple cash - whilst, of course, cash is also useful...

but why let a good opportunity for having an shallow and opportunistic pop at religion go by?

[Prufrock]

Nah, I'm not having that. Not one person who thinks homeless people are in some way to blame for their situation (which unfortunately is still a lot of people) is having their mind changed by a sculpture of Jesus on a park bench. Not one. All this does is mean there's one fewer park bench to sleep on.

There are plenty of people, religious and not, who do good things for the sake of doing good things. There are others who do it as a means of proselytising. This is the latter.

[thebish]

Nah, I'm not having that. Not one person who thinks homeless people are in some way to blame for their situation (which unfortunately is still a lot of people) is having their mind changed by a sculpture of Jesus on a park bench. Not one. All this does is mean there's one fewer park bench to sleep on.

There are plenty of people, religious and not, who do good things for the sake of doing good things. There are others who do it as a means of proselytising. This is the latter.

there are more people in the world whose lives can be affected by art than simply people who think homeless people are in some way to blame for their situation... just because a carefully selected small group of hard cases might not be affected does not mean nobody will...

I suspect it is far more likely that the conversation and talking-point that such a sculpture might have an effect on those who have a vague faith - who profess themselves to be christian in some vague kind of sense but have never realy thought it through - or considered the consequences of following that faith through... to see homelessness linked to something/someone they profess some kind of embryonic trust in could very well affect behaviour...

I think good art can be a powerful culture and attitude-changing thing especially in today's media/image rich world...

however - you seem very sure of yourself (as usual!) - so - as you were!

[Worthy4England]

We could go for some of that abstract stuff. You know, the one that's called "Jesus on a park bench", but to most folks, it looks just like a bus shelter. Reckon that might get some traction.

[Prufrock]

I'm sure there's loads of people who will see a sculpture of Jesus on a bench and think, "you know what, it's just dawned on me that being homeless must be pretty rubbish".

And homeless Dave will be delighted.

"Any soup, lads?"
"No Dave, sorry, we spent the soup money on a sculpture. But don't worry, it's our long term economic plan. For every £1 we spend on sculptures we get back £8 to spend on soup. Probably. I mean we haven't done the maths, but...It's a reckon."

And in the space of two days I've been told to chill out, and accused of being sure of myself by you!! Didn't give up Morrisettian irony for lent, did we?

[thebish]

I'm sure there's loads of people who will see a sculpture of Jesus on a bench and think, "you know what, it's just dawned on me that being homeless must be pretty rubbish".

And homeless Dave will be delighted.

"Any soup, lads?"
"No Dave, sorry, we spent the soup money on a sculpture. But don't worry, it's our long term economic plan. For every £1 we spend on sculptures we get back £8 to spend on soup. Probably. I mean we haven't done the maths, but...It's a reckon."

And in the space of two days I've been told to chill out, and accused of being sure of myself by you!! Didn't give up Morrisettian irony for lent, did we?

aye - chill out and stop being so sure of yourself - and you forgot - get over yourself! you're only a nipper yet - you'll get learned!

incidentally - and anecdotally - I have just been for some messages up the precinct and I stopped for coffee with Ralph our local Big Issue seller (well, he had tea - he hates coffee...) - he's had some considerable experience of homelessness throughout his life..

I asked him what he made of the idea of a Jesus-as-homeless-on-a-bench sculpture - and he thought it sounded like a fantastic idea and he'd love to see it... (I didn't take a picture - but I will next week) I also asked him if it would have been better if the money spent on the sculpture had been given to some homelessness charity... and he said (and I quote directly) - "reckon as it would have been pissed up a wall if they had. that sculpture sounds more lasting." he went on to add, though I cannot remember the exact words, that he thought street-homeless people would be lifted by the idea that they are not alone and that God cares... (he did use the words "God cares") which wasn't a possible benefit of the sculpture I had considered.

maybe you can go ask homeless dave the same question when you go out to offer him soup?

[TANGODANCER]

^^

"No Dave, sorry, we spent the soup money on a sculpture.

If you want to complain about cost, have one statue/sculpture in a chosen location, ( sensible place to make its point would be in an art gallery or museum of course, but hey not many homeless get in there except for a warm...) and put up a load of coloured photos of it in the bus shelters elsewhere.. That shouldn't cost too much and it'll make the same point. That do? Or is it the "Jesus" bit that's really freaking you out?

[Lord Kangana]

Yeah, sorry about this Pru, but your anger is heading in the wrong direction if you think a statue of Jesus is going to do any more harm than the near 40 years of selfish, self-serving policy that has led us here.