Muslims, racists, individuals and attitudes.

[Prufrock]

Christian Aid seems the obvious one though I (probably wrongly!) recall reading something about along the lines that they were requiring Africans to convert before they'd help them.)

See there goes that old, " God says, man says" , thing again. I really doubt that God would ever support a conversion by force ruling. That would be as useful and genuine as offering me a season ticket for Old Trafford as long as I signed a loyalty pledge.

Aye, though tbf you'd do it if your kids feeding depended on it. To be clear I have only a vague recollection of reading something about it a while back, it might not be true and it might not have been Christian Aid.

I'll wager your recollection is utter and complete bollox. I have quite a lot to do with christian aid and you are a long way wide of the mark in making that allegation (even if hedged.)

I'm not making an allegation, am I?! My recollection isn't bollocks, I definitely read the article. What isn't definite is: whether it was Christian Aid -it might have been an allegation against another religious charity and 2) regardless of what charity it was, whether it was is true. I wasn't accusing anyone of anything.

[thebish]

Christian Aid seems the obvious one though I (probably wrongly!) recall reading something about along the lines that they were requiring Africans to convert before they'd help them.)

See there goes that old, " God says, man says" , thing again. I really doubt that God would ever support a conversion by force ruling. That would be as useful and genuine as offering me a season ticket for Old Trafford as long as I signed a loyalty pledge.

Aye, though tbf you'd do it if your kids feeding depended on it. To be clear I have only a vague recollection of reading something about it a while back, it might not be true and it might not have been Christian Aid.

I'll wager your recollection is utter and complete bollox. I have quite a lot to do with christian aid and you are a long way wide of the mark in making that allegation (even if hedged.)

I'm not making an allegation, am I?! My recollection isn't bollocks, I definitely read the article. What isn't definite is: whether it was Christian Aid -it might have been an allegation against another religious charity and 2) regardless of what charity it was, whether it was is true. I wasn't accusing anyone of anything.

except that you did name Christian Aid, for some reason....

[Prufrock]

And to be accurate, although this is not a distinction without difference, I'm not criticising this guy for not doing enough. I'm criticising him fire claiming something which is aggrandizing and proselytizing as in fact being charity. It's independent of any charity he does our or doesn't do.

can you point me to the place where the sculptor is claiming his sculpture is charity? I haven't seen that...

Nope, my mistake: I thought he was the one saying there should be one in every park. That's the idea that I think is crass when argued to be anything other than proselytizing.

so - in effect - what ARE you actually talking about??

and - IIRC - you WERE criticising him for not doing enough - you said he should not make the sculpture and give the equivalent cash to the homeless on top of whatever else he might be doing that you and I know nothing about...

I thought he was on about spending a load of his own cash putting them everywhere.

It wasn't him, but the idea was being suggested by the people Tango saw on tv.

[thebish]

ahhh - ok - so now you're not criticising the church or religion or the sculptor or Ralph - but some people tango saw on TV? glad we sorted that out!

[Prufrock]

except that you did name Christian Aid, for some reason....

Because I'd named two non-religious charities as examples of charities I think make the world a better place and was trying to graciously concede that I'm sure there are religious charities that also make the world a better place but the only one I could come up with off the top of my head was Christian Aid but I had a nagging doubt re: that article. It's the lawyers constant losing battle to remove ambiguity from everything!

[Prufrock]

ahhh - ok - so now you're not criticising the church or religion or the sculptor or Ralph - but some people tango saw on TV? glad we sorted that out!

I'm not criticising the sculptor or Ralph . I don't know who these people were but if surprised if they'd not got religion.I don't know if they're involved with the church.

[Prufrock]

At the risk of being excommunicated from the site, a consideration that thought, word and deed, might well count beyond our earthly actions someday....

"Mr Prufrock, I'm St Peter and I've waited a long time to meet you. Step this way sir, we need to talk.."

I'm certainly no saint but I try to live my life morally and to look after others. The only thing on my charge sheet that wouldn't be on most religious people's is not believing in God. Not that I want any part in the totalitarian nightmare of heaven, but a lack of beliefis a pretty shitty reason to send me to hell, isn't it

aye - agree 100% - one of the reasons i don't believe there is such a place...

To try to have two discussions at once: what would your argument to the children with AIDS charge be?

(I'm not trying to be cheap, I'm sure that if I happened to believe in God Unitarian would be the sect for me, I like that the ones I've met seen happy to not know stuff and struggle with lots of stuff they believe god has done. I don't think I could ever get past the suffering question though. It's almost enough in itself to disprove a benevolent god for me).

I don't really believe in an interventionist God who has made a world and then tampers with it - sometimes averting disaster, sometimes not, on a whim... not sure why you'd pick out children with AIDS - there are millions of injustices in the world - shit happens - it isn't cos people are bad or faithless - it isn't karma - it's, quite frankly, simply the world as it it is in all it's glorious and brutal randomness...

I have tried to imagine what kind of world would "prove" a benevolent God - in the sense that i think people mean that - where nothing goes wrong... it always ends up feeling like quite a bleak place to me... I can't quite grasp how such a world might look or feel.. i don't know how you could have beauty without ugliness or joy without despair or peace without division... it's kinda also why I am pretty turned off by the conventional idea of heaven - and not really that fussed if there is such a place.

Kids with AIDS seemed as good an inexplicably terrible thing to start with as any!

I have a similar feeling about the traditional idea of heaven. Sounds like a totalitarian American summer camp style wholesome nightmare!

The reason I said "almost disproves" is because I think the sheer random horrendous suffering that goes on every day disproves the idea of an omnipotent, benevolent god. If it's true that there can only be happiness if there is also suffering, then that's because any omnipotent god made it that way.

The idea that there's a flawed god, or a god working within some external framework (where for example there has to be suffering for their to be joy) seems much more interesting to me, though it doesn't get me anywhere on the "truth value" of it. Seems to me a god created in man's own image.

So do you believe then that god is frustrated by all the suffering but can't fix it, or is it a more deist distant god who isn't involved in day to day stuff?

[Lord Kangana]

Either god created all the misery, or by any definition he's not worthy of the epithet "god". Surely?

So why create the misery? Not the unpleasant stuff like cold days, lumpy porridge or the tory party. But you know, say, bone cancer? What possible yin is there to that yang?

[Worthy4England]

Tsk. Whaddaya think the Devil's day job is?

[thebish]

except that you did name Christian Aid, for some reason....

Because I'd named two non-religious charities as examples of charities I think make the world a better place and was trying to graciously concede that I'm sure there are religious charities that also make the world a better place but the only one I could come up with off the top of my head was Christian Aid but I had a nagging doubt re: that article. It's the lawyers constant losing battle to remove ambiguity from everything!

aye - very gracious indeed to name a religious one - but then in the same breath suggest it might possible, you may have heard - or may not - be a bit dodgy!!

[thebish]

So do you believe then that god is frustrated by all the suffering but can't fix it, or is it a more deist distant god who isn't involved in day to day stuff?

not sure those are the words I'd use - but - aye - quite close to that... I think God is torn apart by the suffering...

i'm not sure "can't fix it" is that helpful a phrase in my understanding - cos it kinda implies there's a "fixed" version that I have in mind - which there isn't...

what do i think about God? - not distant - in fact - the opposite - very, very present in and through everything yet also beyond everything... the metaphors i would use are probably not that conventional in the normal god-speak world... I would describe God a being like the key signature of the world that we are all made to be tuned to - the more in tune our lives are with God - by which I practically mean Christ-like - then the more in harmony we are with what we are supposed to be...

that's way too airy-fairy for many - i accept that - but it works well for me. I'm not that big on truth-claims or dogma - that doesn't work that well for me...

[Hoboh]

So do you believe then that god is frustrated by all the suffering but can't fix it, or is it a more deist distant god who isn't involved in day to day stuff?

not sure those are the words I'd use - but - aye - quite close to that... I think God is torn apart by the suffering...

i'm not sure "can't fix it" is that helpful a phrase in my understanding - cos it kinda implies there's a "fixed" version that I have in mind - which there isn't...

what do i think about God? - not distant - in fact - the opposite - very, very present in and through everything yet also beyond everything... the metaphors i would use are probably not that conventional in the normal god-speak world... I would describe God a being like the key signature of the world that we are all made to be tuned to - the more in tune our lives are with God - by which I practically mean Christ-like - then the more in harmony we are with what we are supposed to be...

that's way too airy-fairy for many - i accept that - but it works well for me. I'm not that big on truth-claims or dogma - that doesn't work that well for me...

Is God called Eddie?

[TANGODANCER]

Just a couple of things that you may or may not want to consider, particularly acknowleging Good Friday and Easter:

Age. Mankind (all of us, man woman and child) at very best may get a hundred years of life, some very, very much less. God is infinite and his underlying message is that we are here to get our lives in order for an afterlife. Armageddon, end of days, however you choose to see/call it is the prophesied culmination of it all.. Laugh if you will, but is that not the core message of the Bible, Quran, Torah...etc? Broadly speaking, everybody is on test and, whilst mankind has had a few thousand years to learn the rules and observe the guidelines, it's all leading to one end. The sins of the fathers are the reasons for much of the misery in the world and the soul is what will survive, not the body. Don't get me wrong, I'm as mystified as the next man about what actualy awaits us, but none of it seems to be about material things in this life: "What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world amd suffers the loss of his own soul?" (not claiming exact quoting). So, when the call is called up yonder etc...

Well, Happy Easter anyway...

[Hoboh]

Just a couple of things that you may or may not want to consider, particularly acknowleging Good Friday and Easter:

Age. Mankind (all of us, man woman and child) at very best may get a hundred years of life, some very, very much less. God is infinite and his underlying message is that we are here to get our lives in order for an afterlife. Armageddon, end of days, however you choose to see/call it is the prophesied culmination of it all.. Laugh if you will, but is that not the core message of the Bible, Quran, Torah...etc? Broadly speaking, everybody is on test and, whilst mankind has had a few thousand years to learn the rules and observe the guidelines, it's all leading to one end. The sins of the fathers are the reasons for much of the misery in the world and the soul is what will survive, not the body. Don't get me wrong, I'm as mystified as the next man about what actualy awaits us, but none of it seems to be about material things in this life: "What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world amd suffers the loss of his own soul?" (not claiming exact quoting). So, when the call is called up yonder etc...

Well, Happy Easter anyway...

[Worthy4England]

I'm staying up to see if the Easter Bunny shows.

[thebish]

Just a couple of things that you may or may not want to consider, particularly acknowleging Good Friday and Easter:

Age. Mankind (all of us, man woman and child) at very best may get a hundred years of life, some very, very much less. God is infinite and his underlying message is that we are here to get our lives in order for an afterlife. Armageddon, end of days, however you choose to see/call it is the prophesied culmination of it all.. Laugh if you will, but is that not the core message of the Bible, Quran, Torah...etc? Broadly speaking, everybody is on test and, whilst mankind has had a few thousand years to learn the rules and observe the guidelines, it's all leading to one end. The sins of the fathers are the reasons for much of the misery in the world and the soul is what will survive, not the body. Don't get me wrong, I'm as mystified as the next man about what actualy awaits us, but none of it seems to be about material things in this life: "What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world amd suffers the loss of his own soul?" (not claiming exact quoting). So, when the call is called up yonder etc...

nahh - really not sure that's true.

nor do I agree (and jesus didn't either as far as I can tell) that "the sins of the fathers are the reasons for much of the misery in the world" - what does that even mean?

Well, Happy Easter anyway...

and also to you!

[Hoboh]

"the sins of the fathers are the reasons for much of the misery in the world" - what does that even mean?

Seems it has more meaning than you think to liberal lefties who assume because our ancestors travelled to various parts of the world and conquered, we owe them, big time now.
When are we going to sue Italy, Denmark, etc.?

[Lord Kangana]

Hmmm. Its possible you may have, just possibly, over exagerrated what has been said for dramatic affect. Rather like saying "you get arrested and thrown in jail just for saying you're English these days".

Though I would be interested to know who has written that "we owe them big time now".

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -what-next" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For many Sunnis in Syria or Iraq, the point of siding with Isis was that it was the best of a bad set of options in a violent and anarchic conflict. Isis, for all its flaws, offered protection.

If this is no longer the case, support for the group becomes a liability. Isis advanced with astonishing speed, exploiting local disputes and division. Localised cooperation, or at least acquiescence, could become opposition with equal rapidity.

This piece of the story did make me wonder just how many 'innocents' there are in certain ISIS controlled areas.

[Hoboh]

Hmmm. Its possible you may have, just possibly, over exaggerated what has been said for dramatic affect. Rather like saying "you get arrested and thrown in jail just for saying you're English these days".

Though I would be interested to know who has written that "we owe them big time now".

This lot for starters

Members of Caricom, the Caribbean's political and economic body, are meeting on the island of St Vincent on 10 March to co-ordinate their campaign for compensation payments against former slave-owning nations in Europe.

Colonialism Reparation calls on the UK to apologize and pay reparations to India for the massacre of Jallianwala Bagh and for the whole period of British colonial rule, also returning the cultural property stolen during the colonial period.

At the end of May, the Oxford Union held a debate on the motion "This house believes Britain owes reparations to her former colonies". Speakers included former Conservative MP Sir Richard Ottaway, Indian politician and writer Shashi Tharoor and British historian John Mackenzie. Shashi Tharoor's argument in support of the motion, went viral in India after he tweeted it out from his personal account. The argument has found favour among Indians, where the subject of colonial exploitation remains a sore topic