The wonderful EU and Migration thread!

[thebish]

Yes, I am. The article was in a local paper with no political axe to grind and was around the frustrations felt by the local refugee committee who were very disappointed that no one wanted to come to Portugal. It quoted a named refugee from Syria who stated that there was little work available and that opportunities were more easily found in Germany and Sweden, hence the exodus north. He and the other 11 were leaving in the next few weeks. So far, Portugal has not been able to attract any other migrants.

In some ways it's understandable. Portugal still has a very rural, agrarian economy and the average wage is only 950 euros per month - it's a fairly poor country by European standards.

seems sensible to me... if you were fleeing syria and wanted to work - then you'd want to go to a place where there was work available... no?

No, refugee status is not to allow you to cherry pick your destination, well not yet anyway the lefties are trying dammed hard to change that interpretation in peoples minds.
They should be deported back to whatever country they left to enter the EU, clearly illegal chancers with leftie rights stuck up their ass.

yes, hobes - I understand refugee status - but that doesn't change the situation one iota - it still makes sense that if you were fleeing syria and wanted to work - then you'd want to go to a place where there was work available... no? (I certainly would.) (I mean - it's natural human nature - look at all the Bolton types who have fled down south or to the very borders of wales in search of decent jobs...)

[bobo the clown]

^^^^


Interesting that today's 200 returnees to Turkey were largely Pakistani. Bollox-all to do with the Iraqi/Syrian conflagration. Pure economic migrants .... & guess where the majority of them were headed.

[Enoch]

I'm fairly sure if I'd been lucky enough to be born in the back of beyond and rampant capitalism gifted me a smartphone and google, I'd be hopping on me bike and riding off in search of milk and honey.

Of course I'm a second generation economic migrant myself, so I have some sympathy with the pesky chumps.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Of course I'm a second generation economic migrant myself, so I have some sympathy with the pesky chumps.

I'm a first generation one.....

[bobo the clown]

I'm fairly sure if I'd been lucky enough to be born in the back of beyond and rampant capitalism gifted me a smartphone and google, I'd be hopping on me bike and riding off in search of milk and honey.

Of course I'm a second generation economic migrant myself, so I have some sympathy with the pesky chumps.

... but we shouldn't be beating ourselves up about saying "sorry, no".

Look at what it could have done with you !!

[Worthy4England]

I'm fairly sure if I'd been lucky enough to be born in the back of beyond and rampant capitalism gifted me a smartphone and google, I'd be hopping on me bike and riding off in search of milk and honey.

Of course I'm a second generation economic migrant myself, so I have some sympathy with the pesky chumps.

... but we shouldn't be beating ourselves up about saying "sorry, no".

Look at what it could have done with you !!

Errr we shouldn't be beating ourselves up coz it's happening in Portugal (and apparently they want to go to Germany or Sweden)

[Enoch]

I'm fairly sure if I'd been lucky enough to be born in the back of beyond and rampant capitalism gifted me a smartphone and google, I'd be hopping on me bike and riding off in search of milk and honey.

Of course I'm a second generation economic migrant myself, so I have some sympathy with the pesky chumps.

... but we shouldn't be beating ourselves up about saying "sorry, no".

Look at what it could have done with you !!

Oh I would never suggest anyone beat themselves up; there will always be someone else happy to do that.

I do fancy those that say no to migration and those that wish to migrate are cut from the same cloth, both rooted in self interest.

Not a wholly uncommon trait I guess.

[Hoboh]

I'm fairly sure if I'd been lucky enough to be born in the back of beyond and rampant capitalism gifted me a smartphone and google, I'd be hopping on me bike and riding off in search of milk and honey.

Of course I'm a second generation economic migrant myself, so I have some sympathy with the pesky chumps.

... but we shouldn't be beating ourselves up about saying "sorry, no".

Look at what it could have done with you !!

Oh I would never suggest anyone beat themselves up; there will always be someone else happy to do that.

I do fancy those that say no to migration and those that wish to migrate are cut from the same cloth, both rooted in self interest.

Not a wholly uncommon trait I guess.

Look at it rationally and you will find that most are not anti-migration, merely anti mass uncontrolled migration.

There are more than enough people in the UK now on the bottom rungs of society and pressures on the services we all require, to allow just anyone in takes the p*ss out of this.

[thebish]

'tis still a conundrum that we struggle to find nurses and care-workers from our resident population, though...

[Hoboh]

'tis still a conundrum that we struggle to find nurses and care-workers from our resident population, though...

That begs the question, why?

Poor education?

Lack of investment in training?

Poor pay and conditions?

Politicians sticking their noses in areas they are clueless about?

Having said all that the trained skilled people from overseas are right at the bottom of the list of undesirables, if on it at all.

[thebish]

'tis still a conundrum that we struggle to find nurses and care-workers from our resident population, though...

That begs the question, why?

Poor education?

Lack of investment in training?

Poor pay and conditions?

Politicians sticking their noses in areas they are clueless about?

Having said all that the trained skilled people from overseas are right at the bottom of the list of undesirables, if on it at all.

it does... do you have an answer? (cos you're the one saying we shouyld bin off all the low-skilled immigrant labourers and rely on our good old home-grown workers...)

[Beefheart]

'tis still a conundrum that we struggle to find nurses and care-workers from our resident population, though...

That begs the question, why?

Poor education?

Lack of investment in training?

Poor pay and conditions?

Politicians sticking their noses in areas they are clueless about?

Having said all that the trained skilled people from overseas are right at the bottom of the list of undesirables, if on it at all.

it does... do you have an answer? (cos you're the one saying we shouyld bin off all the low-skilled immigrant labourers and rely on our good old home-grown workers...)

You can't let immigrants in because they push down wages...which is why we can't have the living wage because it will attract more immigrants..err..

[Hoboh]

'tis still a conundrum that we struggle to find nurses and care-workers from our resident population, though...

That begs the question, why?

Poor education?

Lack of investment in training?

Poor pay and conditions?

Politicians sticking their noses in areas they are clueless about?

Having said all that the trained skilled people from overseas are right at the bottom of the list of undesirables, if on it at all.

it does... do you have an answer? (cos you're the one saying we shouyld bin off all the low-skilled immigrant labourers and rely on our good old home-grown workers...)

So what are you saying?
Nurses are low skilled?
Relative, Simple low skilled jobs, such as warehouse workers don't have to be imported from Poland or elsewhere, as beefheart implies we could offer decent wages and leave the unemployed no excuses for not taking up this work.
Hard when the current minimum wage is more than twice some overseas EU countries equivalent.

[thebish]

So what are you saying?
Nurses are low skilled?
Relative, Simple low skilled jobs, such as warehouse workers don't have to be imported from Poland or elsewhere, as beefheart implies we could offer decent wages and leave the unemployed no excuses for not taking up this work.
Hard when the current minimum wage is more than twice some overseas EU countries equivalent.

I'm not "saying" - I'm asking - these are some of the jobs we find difficult to fill from "home-grown" labour... given that you propose to cut off/down the supply of migrant labout for these jobs - it makes sense to ask you how you would fill the gap in these kinds of profession - how would you motivate our home-grown unemployed labour force to take on such work and do it in such a way that you'd be happy for your rellies to be left in their care? To know this - you'd have to have a clue why we find them hard to fill from home-grown labour - which is why I asked you precisely that...

until we know this and have solid proposals to fix it - then cutting off the supply of labour to fill these essential jobs would be a bit daft, no?

[Hoboh]

So what are you saying?
Nurses are low skilled?
Relative, Simple low skilled jobs, such as warehouse workers don't have to be imported from Poland or elsewhere, as beefheart implies we could offer decent wages and leave the unemployed no excuses for not taking up this work.
Hard when the current minimum wage is more than twice some overseas EU countries equivalent.

I'm not "saying" - I'm asking - these are some of the jobs we find difficult to fill from "home-grown" labour... given that you propose to cut off/down the supply of migrant labout for these jobs - it makes sense to ask you how you would fill the gap in these kinds of profession - how would you motivate our home-grown unemployed labour force to take on such work and do it in such a way that you'd be happy for your rellies to be left in their care? To know this - you'd have to have a clue why we find them hard to fill from home-grown labour - which is why I asked you precisely that...

until we know this and have solid proposals to fix it - then cutting off the supply of labour to fill these essential jobs would be a bit daft, no?

You getting old?

(cos you're the one saying we shouyld bin off all the low-skilled immigrant labourers and rely on our good old home-grown workers...)

This is what we were discussing, your point.

'tis still a conundrum that we struggle to find nurses and care-workers from our resident population, though...

What unskilled migrant labourers have to do with the above professions beats me

[thebish]

So what are you saying?
Nurses are low skilled?
Relative, Simple low skilled jobs, such as warehouse workers don't have to be imported from Poland or elsewhere, as beefheart implies we could offer decent wages and leave the unemployed no excuses for not taking up this work.
Hard when the current minimum wage is more than twice some overseas EU countries equivalent.

I'm not "saying" - I'm asking - these are some of the jobs we find difficult to fill from "home-grown" labour... given that you propose to cut off/down the supply of migrant labout for these jobs - it makes sense to ask you how you would fill the gap in these kinds of profession - how would you motivate our home-grown unemployed labour force to take on such work and do it in such a way that you'd be happy for your rellies to be left in their care? To know this - you'd have to have a clue why we find them hard to fill from home-grown labour - which is why I asked you precisely that...

until we know this and have solid proposals to fix it - then cutting off the supply of labour to fill these essential jobs would be a bit daft, no?

You getting old?

nope - just asking you a question.

it's fine to say you don't know BTW!

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... t-71892294" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A week after our first bilateral meeting in Berlin, Schäuble and I were to meet again across the long, rectangular table of the Eurogroup, the eurozone’s decision-making body, comprising the common currency’s finance ministers, plus the representatives of the troika – the ECB, the European Commission, and the International Monetary Fund. After I had recited our government’s plea for a substantial renegotiation of the so-called “Greek economic programme”, which had the troika’s fingerprints all over it, Dr Schäuble astounded me with a reply that should send shivers up the spine of every democrat: “Elections cannot be allowed to change an economic programme of a member state!” he said categorically.

During a break from that 10-hour Eurogroup meeting, in which I had struggled to reclaim some economic sovereignty on behalf of my battered parliament and our suffering people, another finance minister attempted to soothe me by saying: “Yanis, you must understand that no country can be sovereign today. Especially not a small and bankrupt one like yours.”

Democrats?

My ass, vote to remain this is what you will get, dictatorship.

[Hoboh]

So what are you saying?
Nurses are low skilled?
Relative, Simple low skilled jobs, such as warehouse workers don't have to be imported from Poland or elsewhere, as beefheart implies we could offer decent wages and leave the unemployed no excuses for not taking up this work.
Hard when the current minimum wage is more than twice some overseas EU countries equivalent.

I'm not "saying" - I'm asking - these are some of the jobs we find difficult to fill from "home-grown" labour... given that you propose to cut off/down the supply of migrant labout for these jobs - it makes sense to ask you how you would fill the gap in these kinds of profession - how would you motivate our home-grown unemployed labour force to take on such work and do it in such a way that you'd be happy for your rellies to be left in their care? To know this - you'd have to have a clue why we find them hard to fill from home-grown labour - which is why I asked you precisely that...

until we know this and have solid proposals to fix it - then cutting off the supply of labour to fill these essential jobs would be a bit daft, no?

You getting old?

nope - just asking you a question.

it's fine to say you don't know BTW!

a clue?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/sme ... 3d7f&plr=1#!/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thebish]

why give me "clues" when you could simply tell me what you actually think?

here's the question again...

If we (as you often suggest) cut off/down the supply of imported labour - what needs to be done to persuade our home-grown labour force to take up the slack - not least in relatively low-paid jobs such as care-work and nursing - and for them to take it up in such a way that you would happily entrust your relatives to their care? what's the plan?

[benn]

Dont post much but I am 3 years into a 5 year stint to become a health professional at a ripe old of 55, not a nurse btw.

Nursing is more complex. You cannot become a nurse or any other health professional in the UK without obtaining a degree whilst training to do so. For many wanting to do this in later life you have to do a year at college before doing some related access course unless you are 18 - 21 with the right number/grade of A levels. The reason being any qualification older than 6 years is deemed out of date.

So for nursing 4 years of study is required and though one currently gets a NHS bursary for the last three years, that will end next year. A nurse with a bursary is likely to be in £12 - £18k of debt from student living loans before they start nursing. That is not the issue though. The number of nurses trained currently although recently increased is still only around 75% of what is needed due to cut backs on bursaries.

So what do the NHS do? They save money on training and go to hire from places like Poland, Greece, Spain or much further abroad plucking their best (even though their training is no where near the equivalent of UK standard) because our wages are relatively higher.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... rom-abroad

Things are set to get worse when bursaries are stopped next year. A college course in England costs £3k. Then a potential nurse will have to take out an annual £9k course loan and a student living grant of say minimum £4k. So thats £42k in debt for a job that starts at band 4/5 of £20k.

For my chosen profession I have worked out that my 5 years of study would have cost me £57k after 5 years without the bursary for a job that currently pays just over £21k starting salary. Now I know repayments are tapered but surely someone somewhere has to realise that the old methods of vocational training on the job done at local hospital levels i.e. old apprentice style was much better? We are blinded by the thought that everyone has to go to university.