Muslims, racists, individuals and attitudes.

[Bijou Bob]

You've apparently ignored my contention that both muslin AND non Muslim parents prefer their children to be educated with their ethnically similar peers. That isn't supposition, it's evidenced by a quick look at a large number of primary schools ( and indeed some secondary schools and colleges now). Trevor Philips acknowledges that this is a reality in many towns and cities. Apparently you disagree.Fair enough, but it is happening.

I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing with?? Or are you just doing your usual thing of challenging stuff for the sake of a semantic argument?

[Worthy4England]

I wouldn't want my children at a school that I didn't believe broadly followed my view of the world. I tried to send them to a school that's a close match to peer group, but ethnicity wouldn't be the only factor.

[Hoboh]

I wouldn't want my children at a school that I didn't believe broadly followed my view of the world. I tried to send them to a school that's a close match to peer group, but ethnicity wouldn't be the only factor.

I might be on my own here (now't new there ), but I believe there should be no room for any sort of 'faith schools' of any type in the education system, education should be secular and I'd drop all religious teaching in them as well.

[Gary the Enfield]

I wouldn't want my children at a school that I didn't believe broadly followed my view of the world. I tried to send them to a school that's a close match to peer group, but ethnicity wouldn't be the only factor.

I might be on my own here (now't new there ), but I believe there should be no room for any sort of 'faith schools' of any type in the education system, education should be secular and I'd drop all religious teaching in them as well.

Amen.

[thebish]

You've apparently ignored my contention that both muslin AND non Muslim parents prefer their children to be educated with their ethnically similar peers. That isn't supposition, it's evidenced by a quick look at a large number of primary schools ( and indeed some secondary schools and colleges now). Trevor Philips acknowledges that this is a reality in many towns and cities. Apparently you disagree.Fair enough, but it is happening.

I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing with?? Or are you just doing your usual thing of challenging stuff for the sake of a semantic argument?

sorry if it wasn't clear.

i am disagreeing with two things.

1) that the findings of that survey are very frightening - they just don't seem that scary at all to me...

2) that muslims (in general) rather than just some muslims don't want to send their kids to integrated schools. why do I disagree? because - as I said - my experience in London showed me that lots (not all) - but lots of muslims are perfectly happy sending their kids to integrated schools and that the biggest factor is not religion/culture/race - but whether the school is any good or not - in my experience they were just as keen to send their kids to a school where they thought their kids would get a good education as any other parents. I don't think that for all parents - even most parents - race/religion or anything other than "is this a good school" is the deciding factor where to send your kids to school - it might be for a few. (The same is true, I think, for non Muslim parents - certainly the ones my kids went to school alongside - their first concern was the quality of the school - and the league tables rather than the racial/religious mix or lack of it.)

I hope that's clearer.

[Bijou Bob]

Fair enough. I do find it frightening, we'll have to disagree on that. Clearly the events in Belgium, France and in London 11 years ago didn't rattle you. I salute your fortitude.

London, as you know, is almost a world away from East Lancashire and Yorkshire in terms of the attitudes that exist and the opportunities, given the multi ethnic nature of the city, that exist to send your child, Muslim OR NON MUSLIM to the school of your choice. The picture is vastly different up here. You don't have to accept that, it just happens to be true. If you can give me another reason why Boilton has 4 or more single ethnicity primary schools, then please feel free.

[Worthy4England]

Fair enough. I do find it frightening, we'll have to disagree on that. Clearly the events in Belgium, France and in London 11 years ago didn't rattle you. I salute your fortitude.

I'm not sure they rattled anymore than the IRA setting off bombs in Warrington and Manchester (close to home)...

[Bijou Bob]

I'm sure they didn't, but as PIRA no longer seem to be active on the mainland at this time, we can concentrate on the threats we do have. My point is that a lack of future integration and the propensity of some to use violence to further their aims, is a potentially dangerous cocktail that needs addressing.

[Worthy4England]

I'm sure they didn't, but as PIRA no longer seem to be active on the mainland at this time, we can concentrate on the threats we do have. My point is that a lack of future integration and the propensity of some to use violence to further their aims, is a potentially dangerous cocktail that needs addressing.

I used that example because there are a number of parallels. They weren't just around for 5 minutes - Aldershot bombing was in 1972. Docklands bombing was in 1996 - not sure whether they're at the absolute ends of the spectrum, but there's quarter of a century between them. During which time it didn't really get addressed, was a potentially dangerous cocktail from people who didn't want to integrate (quite the opposite - mind they didn't want to live here either) and had a propensity to use violence.

So I think we've faced most of the problems before, they're not unique. The integration part, I agree is a problem. Not sure how it's easily solved though!

[thebish]

Fair enough. I do find it frightening, we'll have to disagree on that. Clearly the events in Belgium, France and in London 11 years ago didn't rattle you. I salute your fortitude.

London, as you know, is almost a world away from East Lancashire and Yorkshire in terms of the attitudes that exist and the opportunities, given the multi ethnic nature of the city, that exist to send your child, Muslim OR NON MUSLIM to the school of your choice. The picture is vastly different up here. You don't have to accept that, it just happens to be true. If you can give me another reason why Boilton has 4 or more single ethnicity primary schools, then please feel free.

I suspect that the ethnicity of a school broadly matches the ethnicity of the neighbourhood where it is set... that's how school admissions (broadly-speaking) work. The fact of single ethnicity schools (like the all-white schools of East Cornwall!) doesn't (IMHO) indicate a particular desire from parents to send their kids to a single-ethnicity school - rather, the fact that this IS simply their local school... It's a consequence or side-effect of the fact that some of our towns have areas that are predominantly white and areas that are predominantly "ethnic minority" or mono-ethnic... much like brits abroad in Spain form mono-ethnic enclaves...

I still think the biggest driving factor amongst parents (of any ethnicity) is the best quality school they can get their child into - usually the best local school - parents usually want to do the best they can for their kids.

also - my kids went to school in the North as well as in London.

clearly you ARE frightened - I accept that - but, out of the actual findings of that NOP survey - what is it that frightens you in particular that is to do with specifically British Muslim attitudes?

[Worthy4England]

If I have two schools that are equal in all aspects (unlikely) and one was predominantly populated by a different ethnicity and the other was populated predominantly by my ethnicity, I'd send my child to the one that more closely matched my ethnicity.

[thebish]

If I have two schools that are equal in all aspects (unlikely) and one was predominantly populated by a different ethnicity and the other was populated predominantly by my ethnicity, I'd send my child to the one that more closely matched my ethnicity.

aye - maybe - but, as you say, that would be a very rare occurrence!

if you had two schools and one matched your ethnicity better than the other one - but the other one had a crap reputation for teaching... I suspect you might pick the other one!

[Worthy4England]

If I have two schools that are equal in all aspects (unlikely) and one was predominantly populated by a different ethnicity and the other was populated predominantly by my ethnicity, I'd send my child to the one that more closely matched my ethnicity.

aye - maybe - but, as you say, that would be a very rare occurrence!

if you had two schools and one matched your ethnicity better than the other one - but the other one had a crap reputation for teaching... I suspect you might pick the other one!

Probably - but I couldn't swear to it - it'd be a much more tricky decision for me.

[Bijou Bob]

Indeed you're right Bish, the schools in Bolton that have pupils from the south east Asian poulation are in predominantly Asian areas. That sort of proves my point about integration. The vast majority of Muslims living in Bolton live within a few streets of each other in two or three areas.

I get the fact that people feel safe with 'Their own kind', after all, look at the British expat community in Spain, but what worries me is that unless we see some radical changes, the divisions between communities will get worse. The riots in Bradford and Oldham were a long while ago, but my information from friends and ex colleagues who work in those areas is that tensions are rising again. Add to that mix of social disenfranchisement a sizeable number of people who believe that violence to achieve a political or religious end is acceptable and the future looks worrying, to me at least.

[thebish]

Indeed you're right Bish, the schools in Bolton that have pupils from the south east Asian poulation are in predominantly Asian areas. That sort of proves my point about integration. The vast majority of Muslims living in Bolton live within a few streets of each other in two or three areas.

I get the fact that people feel safe with 'Their own kind', after all, look at the British expat community in Spain, but what worries me is that unless we see some radical changes, the divisions between communities will get worse. The riots in Bradford and Oldham were a long while ago, but my information from friends and ex colleagues who work in those areas is that tensions are rising again. Add to that mix of social disenfranchisement a sizeable number of people who believe that violence to achieve a political or religious end is acceptable and the future looks worrying, to me at least.

yes - integration is an issue - but it's not really an issue of muslim attitudes - it's a much wider issue. not integrating seems to be a profoundly British attitude - in which case, those non integrating Muslims should fit right in!

[TANGODANCER]

Indeed you're right Bish, the schools in Bolton that have pupils from the south east Asian poulation are in predominantly Asian areas. That sort of proves my point about integration. The vast majority of Muslims living in Bolton live within a few streets of each other in two or three areas.

I get the fact that people feel safe with 'Their own kind', after all, look at the British expat community in Spain, but what worries me is that unless we see some radical changes, the divisions between communities will get worse. The riots in Bradford and Oldham were a long while ago, but my information from friends and ex colleagues who work in those areas is that tensions are rising again. Add to that mix of social disenfranchisement a sizeable number of people who believe that violence to achieve a political or religious end is acceptable and the future looks worrying, to me at least.

Take this as fact, not imagination or in any way a biased view, but just unarguable fact.
Farnworth is becoming/has become, a decidedly Asian area of choice. Crescent Road, which is effectively Bolton but borders Farnworth, has long been a primarily Asian populated centre. Now houses are being bought up in my own and surrounding roads because Green Lane is considered noisy, too busy and not the best choice for children. The house opposite us is currently the subject of a council application to turn it from a three bedroom semi into a six bedroom house with a massive extension and garage since it was purchased about a month ago by the same guy that has also bought up and considerably extended two other properties not fifty yards from us. Last week a neighbour who has a sizable rear garden was approached by an Asian lady asking if she was prepared to sell. She was not apparently prepared to give up easily and our neighbour had to eventually shut the door on her. There are twenty two houses in our quite quiet road, a a place I have lived in for thirty-five years, and about the same on the road above us. At least a dozen of them are owned by Asian people. My own next door neighbours are Polish. Many of the houses below us down to Minerva Road are the residences of Asian taxi drivers and two ice-cream sellers. I have no trouble with any of them whatsoever, but as regards to the area becoming Asian dominated, it surely will be one day soon. Any house that goes up for sale or let is a target and people even stroll around in the evening examining the properties. This week another neighbour who has lived happily here for fifteen years told me he is selling up and going to live in Scotland. Not everyone is happy with the status quo.

[Enoch]

This week another neighbour who has lived happily here for fifteen years told me he is selling up and going to live in Scotland.

I can just see the endearing looks when another f*cking Sassenach moves in round the corner.

[TANGODANCER]

This week another neighbour who has lived happily here for fifteen years told me he is selling up and going to live in Scotland.

I can just see the endearing looks when another f*cking Sassenach moves in round the corner.

Oh, it won't be round anybody's corner mate. He's bought a farm out in the wilds somewhere.

[thebish]

This week another neighbour who has lived happily here for fifteen years told me he is selling up and going to live in Scotland.

I can just see the endearing looks when another f*cking Sassenach moves in round the corner.

Oh, it won't be round anybody's corner mate. He's bought a farm out in the wilds somewhere.

bloody immigrants buying our farmhouses and refusing to integrate...

[Montreal Wanderer]

I wouldn't want my children at a school that I didn't believe broadly followed my view of the world. I tried to send them to a school that's a close match to peer group, but ethnicity wouldn't be the only factor.

I might be on my own here (now't new there ), but I believe there should be no room for any sort of 'faith schools' of any type in the education system, education should be secular and I'd drop all religious teaching in them as well.

This is a scary moment, but I'm partly with you here, Hoboh. I have no problem with what you call 'faith schools' if they are private and have no drain on the public purse. However, I think it better to go to a regular school Monday to Friday, and save the weekend for faith teaching. I think it is reasonable to have a subject such as moral and religious education on the curriculum if it talks about religions and other moral codes in general and does not propound one of them as correct. After all we don't want our school graduates to have no idea about one of the world's prime motivators. Education should be secular and religions studied as any other branch of philosophy.