Brexit or Britin

[Worthy4England]

I agree with TD - I'm ok that we're having a vote on this (so in no way objecting) - but it's of such a magnitude, it's like spot the ball. Most folks (and I include myself in this) have little notion of the impacts of in (or out) in any meaningful sense - even when you look, read and try to understand, the base data is questioned. The information that's in the public domain is open to wild interpretation on both sides - and has been subject to it. So realistically it's pseudo-democracy. We'll give you a vote, the ramifications of which you can't possibly understand.

I'm glad to see Hoboh hasn't resorted to Project Fear in his response. Not one little bit.

I'm not sitting on the fence, it is what I really believe will happen and so if I may say do Dave and the cronies, they just never anticipated so much anti feeling and Italy/Merkel's stupidity with Migrants.

And there was me thinking you'd been sat on the fence for the last 10 years or so... So being scary is allowed as long as you believe it?

The referendum, such that it is will determine how much "anti-feeling" there is, as well as how much "pro-feeling" there is. Historically, everywhere there's been votes they've typically fairly close. Generally no greater than 46/47% - 54/53% either way...If the vote is in that sort of area, then the winning side will claim "clear mandate" and the losing side will proclaim "no clear mandate".

[Worthy4England]

6 and a bit weeks to go and it looks like the tide has turned. Brexit is now just a distant dream for some barring a disaster for the 'ins'.

I don't believe that, for one minute.

#2 son sent some figures today showing a 4% re-swing back to the outers and a 4% lead to the In camp.

There will be swings to & fro yet.

I still think it'll be an out vote, or a very small remain vote. I'm sure all the press will be telling the "remainers" that it's hardly worth turning up at the polling station...

I'm predicting a massive win for BRITIN by at least 20 % points. I do agree with much of your later post. Most of the population will be voting on an issue about which they can know nothing of the potential consequences. Fear will carry the day. I also think that for once, Hoboh may well be right, I can indeed see us getting shafted once we've decided to stay in.

Hoboh's main contention is often that we get shafted by "Merkel" - someone who has the same voting power as "Cameron"....

As for "shafted" if we stay in, we don't need a referendum to leave - the UK Government could decide at any point in time without consulting the electorate that it wanted to leave...

[TANGODANCER]

Bijou Bob said:

Most of the population will be voting on an issue about which they can know nothing of the potential consequences. Fear will carry the day.

Which begs the question, why can't someone tell us and give honest guidance? Already, by indication, we're proving we're a Yin and Yang country by no majority being evident. What does this tell joe public about which way to go?

Showing my lack ( interest) of political knowlege here, but I still can't fully understand why the immigration problem (which after all seems to be what all this hokey-cokey, in-out,shake it all about issue is mainly about) couldn't have been resolved regardless of Brussels and co, by simply saying we'll fix a figure that we as a country think is fair and say what we'll accept for our country in case of emergency issues happening. A figure we can actually afford. Membership of E.U is surely an agreement to certain beneficial communal rules, but why did we ever get pushed into a corner in agreeing to such rules without negotiating flexibility routes in case of wars, immigration and financial jiggery pokery. Being a member of an organisation should be about communal interests, not about selling your soul, or if you don't comply we'll take your lollipop coupons off you. It does make me wonder just what our politicians did actually sign us up for initially. If the E.U is an organisition for everybody's benefit we should surely be fighting to get into it, not out of it? This post freely admits I haven't really got a clue what it's all about.

[BWFC_Insane]

Bijou Bob said:

Most of the population will be voting on an issue about which they can know nothing of the potential consequences. Fear will carry the day.

Which begs the question, why can't someone tell us and give honest guidance? Already, by indication, we're proving we're a Yin and Yang country by no majority being evident. What does this tell joe public about which way to go?

Showing my lack ( interest) of political knowlege here, but I still can't fully understand why the immigration problem (which after all seems to be what all this hokey-cokey, in-out,shake it all about issue is mainly about) couldn't have been resolved regardless of Brussels and co, by simply saying we'll fix a figure that we as a country think is fair and say what we'll accept for our country in case of emergency issues happening. A figure we can actually afford. Membership of E.U is surely an agreement to certain beneficial communal rules, but why did we ever get pushed into a corner in agreeing to such rules without negotiating flexibility routes in case of wars, immigration and financial jiggery pokery. Being a member of an organisation should be about communal interests, not about selling your soul, or if you don't comply we'll take your lollipop coupons off you. It does make me wonder just what our politicians did actually sign us up for initially. If the E.U is an organisition for everybody's benefit we should surely be fighting to get into it, not out of it? This post freely admits I haven't really got a clue what it's all about.

1) Is a good question. Probably because as bish has pointed out any "official" facts would end up being disputed and thus become worthless.

2) Because going back a long way, freedom of movement for workers has been a central part of the membership of the EU. We can control immigration from non-EU countries in the way you mention, but for EU workers essentially we can't set tariffs or rates. The thing to note is that more migrants come from non-EU countries (something that is entirely in our power) than EU countries.

[Hoboh]

Hoboh's main contention is often that we get shafted by "Merkel" - someone who has the same voting power as "Cameron"....

As for "shafted" if we stay in, we don't need a referendum to leave - the UK Government could decide at any point in time without consulting the electorate that it wanted to leave...

No one got to vote on Merkel's million, yet she expects other EU members to share her self induced burden.

The Greeks are being screwed by Germany yet being dumped with Merkel's folly.

Germany's non negotiable, not ever, central plank of freedom of movement/no borders is allowing hordes of illegals from all across the world to gather in Calais.

Who waves the biggest stick when appointing non elected officials and makes overt overtures about which type of government they wish to see in some EU member states?

And all that's before mentioning who wants to grovel to Turkey with other states money to solve 'her' problem and push through weaker visa requirements and re-started membership talks for a country that slams jurno's into prison, sits on the fence watching people being massacred because they are Kurds and rocks up in Iraq under the pretence of fighting ISIS when even the Iraqi government wants them out.
I'd consider, if I could, voting for Jimmy Krankie before having anything to do with Merkel and that's saying something.

[Worthy4England]

So, could the rest of the EU comfortably outvote Germany if they wanted to? A simple yes or no will suffice...

[BWFC_Insane]

Hoboh's main contention is often that we get shafted by "Merkel" - someone who has the same voting power as "Cameron"....

As for "shafted" if we stay in, we don't need a referendum to leave - the UK Government could decide at any point in time without consulting the electorate that it wanted to leave...

No one got to vote on Merkel's million, yet she expects other EU members to share her self induced burden.

The Greeks are being screwed by Germany yet being dumped with Merkel's folly.

Germany's non negotiable, not ever, central plank of freedom of movement/no borders is allowing hordes of illegals from all across the world to gather in Calais.

Who waves the biggest stick when appointing non elected officials and makes overt overtures about which type of government they wish to see in some EU member states?

And all that's before mentioning who wants to grovel to Turkey with other states money to solve 'her' problem and push through weaker visa requirements and re-started membership talks for a country that slams jurno's into prison, sits on the fence watching people being massacred because they are Kurds and rocks up in Iraq under the pretence of fighting ISIS when even the Iraqi government wants them out.
I'd consider, if I could, voting for Jimmy Krankie before having anything to do with Merkel and that's saying something.

Woah. There is freedom of movement for EU workers. That is it. Freedom of movement does not apply to non-EU countries. We let more non-EU immigrants in than we do EU ones. And the non-EU immigration is ENTIRELY wirthin our governments power.

[Hoboh]

Hoboh's main contention is often that we get shafted by "Merkel" - someone who has the same voting power as "Cameron"....

As for "shafted" if we stay in, we don't need a referendum to leave - the UK Government could decide at any point in time without consulting the electorate that it wanted to leave...

No one got to vote on Merkel's million, yet she expects other EU members to share her self induced burden.

The Greeks are being screwed by Germany yet being dumped with Merkel's folly.

Germany's non negotiable, not ever, central plank of freedom of movement/no borders is allowing hordes of illegals from all across the world to gather in Calais.

Who waves the biggest stick when appointing non elected officials and makes overt overtures about which type of government they wish to see in some EU member states?

And all that's before mentioning who wants to grovel to Turkey with other states money to solve 'her' problem and push through weaker visa requirements and re-started membership talks for a country that slams jurno's into prison, sits on the fence watching people being massacred because they are Kurds and rocks up in Iraq under the pretence of fighting ISIS when even the Iraqi government wants them out.
I'd consider, if I could, voting for Jimmy Krankie before having anything to do with Merkel and that's saying something.

Woah. There is freedom of movement for EU workers. That is it. Freedom of movement does not apply to non-EU countries. We let more non-EU immigrants in than we do EU ones. And the non-EU immigration is ENTIRELY wirthin our governments power.

So, we have control of just over just 50% of immigration and EU migrants are a better class of migrants and should be supported as such?
I'm sure the people in Boston and Sheffield, areas around London parks will agree with you.

[Worthy4England]

^^ Hoboh Merkel? Is that you? Are you suggesting we shouldn't control our borders for the 50% we're actually in control of? If we take that approach, what's the point being in control of the other 50%?

[Hoboh]

^^ Hoboh Merkel? Is that you? Are you suggesting we shouldn't control our borders for the 50% we're actually in control of? If we take that approach, what's the point being in control of the other 50%?

I'm suggesting we have 100% and be choosey who we let in.

I'd draw a very thick line on all the family members of non-EU migrants who seem to find their way over here by one means or another.

EU migrants, no qualifications, no provable employment, no entry. Unemployed in the first 4 years, deportation.

[Worthy4England]

^^ Hoboh Merkel? Is that you? Are you suggesting we shouldn't control our borders for the 50% we're actually in control of? If we take that approach, what's the point being in control of the other 50%?

I'm suggesting we have 100% and be choosey who we let in.

I'd draw a very thick line on all the family members of non-EU migrants who seem to find their way over here by one means or another.

EU migrants, no qualifications, no provable employment, no entry. Unemployed in the first 4 years, deportation.

So would you apply the same rules for all migrants? EU or non-EU?

[thebish]

It's a trap, hoboh - beware!!!

[Worthy4England]

It's a trap, hoboh - beware!!!

[Hoboh]

Since the attacks in Paris and Brussels, the European Commission has been pushing to improve intelligence sharing between the nine European nations most concerned with jihadist threat.

Most European agencies refuse to share intelligence with other countries, even within the EU, leading to blindspots across the continent.

Another of the 'in' campaigns false security ideals fails!

"I am convinced that the UK's membership of the EU gives us greater security and greater capacity to project power globally," Cameron said in comments released by his office

"There's no doubt in my mind about the scale of the terrorist threat we face today" Mr Cameron says, as he tells staff the UK is safer inside the EU

.

[Worthy4England]

Security and intelligence are not the same thing.

Another of the "out" campaigns lack of understanding English.

[Hoboh]

Security and intelligence are not the same thing.

Another of the "out" campaigns lack of understanding English.

Stop nit picking, you cannot have security without intelligence and you know it.

Without intelligence sharing how come the Paris/Brussels bombers could travel about almost at free will?

[Hoboh]

Turkish parliamentarians fought on Wednesday

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... ril-ankara" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Our next new intake to the EU!

[Worthy4England]

Security and intelligence are not the same thing.

Another of the "out" campaigns lack of understanding English.

Stop nit picking, you cannot have security without intelligence and you know it.

Without intelligence sharing how come the Paris/Brussels bombers could travel about almost at free will?

It's not nit picking. Security is many things, one facet of which may involve gathering intelligence. You can absolutely, have better security than you had without intelligence. For a start we're not in any imminent danger of war with Germany - there were two fairly hefty ones in the last 100 years, that did a fair bit more damage than the Paris/Brussels bombers.

[Lord Kangana]

Where does the information come from about non-cooperation?

Only, out here in the real world, having been involved in a cross-border case, and having spoken to actual people who actually cross actual borders, I was informed that cross-border cooperation was actually very good these days as it was in no-one's interests for it not to be.

[Prufrock]

It comes from "quote" ffs. Rock solid.