The Politics Thread

[thebish]

yes Zac - now we all believe you are a regular bloke down the pub drinking a pint! show me how I should be holding that pint glass again???

[TANGODANCER]

"Boiling Tar" springs to mind......

[thebish]

Nicky Morgabn and this crackpot idea to force all schools to become academies run by "chains" - cutting out local education authorities...

there are rumours that this is so unpopular that she will propose renaming some local education authorities as "chains" so that she can then say they are run by chains (and not the LEA) and have thus all magically become "academies"...

[Bruce Rioja]

yes Zac - now we all believe you are a regular bloke down the pub drinking a pint! show me how I should be holding that pint glass again???

Knowing how to hold a pint is dead important, of course. However, having been away all week I'd got wind of this issue and was hoping to be able to bring myself up to speed on it upon my return on here, and of course on the subsequent fall out. Oh, but what's this? Not a single mention?!

How ever did this pass unnoticed on here?

[Lord Kangana]

Whilst a massive foot in mouth moment, I'm pretty certain that what he said was historically accurate.

[Harry Genshaw]

Whilst a massive foot in mouth moment, I'm pretty certain that what he said was historically accurate.

Agreed. There's no way Livingstone is an anti semite or a racist. He's fought against that kind of thing for years. As an experienced politician though I'm amazed at his poor choice of words when defending the other lass (whose name escapes me).

Bruce -:it was briefly discussed on the Muslims thread. No accompanying video mind

[Montreal Wanderer]

Knowing how to hold a pint is dead important, of course.

It was a lot easier in my day - pint mugs had a handle as did half pints. Can't think what the country came to since I left....

[Prufrock]

Whilst a massive foot in mouth moment, I'm pretty certain that what he said was historically accurate.

Agreed. There's no way Livingstone is an anti semite or a racist. He's fought against that kind of thing for years. As an experienced politician though I'm amazed at his poor choice of words when defending the other lass (whose name escapes me).

Bruce -:it was briefly discussed on the Muslims thread. No accompanying video mind

Historically accurate? F*ck me.

And seriously. Comparing Israel to the Nazis. Not South Africa, or the Romans, or even Stalin, but the Nazis. I don't believe that sentence forms itself in a politician of his experience's head without alarm bells ringing. Yet he still said it.

When talking about whether someone is racist intent is important. It's casuistry to say that when you do something knowing full well X will be the consequence, that you didn't intend x, it was just an accidental by-product.

Naz Shah f*cked up, but seems to realise it and mean her apology. She can stay for me. Ken needs to go.

I do love that this, like everything bad that has happened to the Labour party recently is apparently a Blairite conspiracy.

[Worthy4England]

Whilst a massive foot in mouth moment, I'm pretty certain that what he said was historically accurate.

Agreed. There's no way Livingstone is an anti semite or a racist. He's fought against that kind of thing for years. As an experienced politician though I'm amazed at his poor choice of words when defending the other lass (whose name escapes me).

Bruce -:it was briefly discussed on the Muslims thread. No accompanying video mind

Historically accurate? F*ck me.

And seriously. Comparing Israel to the Nazis. Not South Africa, or the Romans, or even Stalin, but the Nazis. I don't believe that sentence forms itself in a politician of his experience's head without alarm bells ringing. Yet he still said it.

When talking about whether someone is racist intent is important. It's casuistry to say that when you do something knowing full well X will be the consequence, that you didn't intend x, it was just an accidental by-product.

Naz Shah f*cked up, but seems to realise it and mean her apology. She can stay for me. Ken needs to go.

I do love that this, like everything bad that has happened to the Labour party recently is apparently a Blairite conspiracy.

Did he compare Israel to the Nazis? I missed that bit - but surely one is a state and the other was a political party? I think he suggested that there had been some talk about Zionist proposals from the Nationalist Socialists - which seems to have derived from a speech the Israeli PM, Netanyahu, gave to the World Zionist Congress last year, which got soundly jumped upon by most (but not all) historians, but actually seems to an outsider like me, to be a complete set up by Netanyahu, to blame the Palestinians for their contribution to the holocaust so no fcker will notice the Israeli actions

Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time [of the meeting between the mufti and the Nazi leader]. He wanted to expel the Jews,” Netanyahu said. “And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, ‘If you expel them, they’ll all come here [to mandatory Palestine],'” continued the prime minister "So what should I do with them?’ He [Hitler] asked,” according to Netanyahu. “He [Husseini] said, ‘Burn them

Either way anyone with any smarts probably would have thought about it first. Problem is (as is often the case) the history that's passed is rarely the full and true account.

Anyhow - the real point was about whether Zac Goldsmith looked like he'd ever handled a pint in a tap room - to which the answer is a resounding, no.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I didn't hear what he alleged to have said. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is clearly absurd. However, tenable arguments could be made to suggest that Israel is a fascist state. I refer to fascism before Hitler perverted it and made the word pejorative. Not that I make that argument - I suggest only that it is tenable.

[thebish]

'tis a complex question with multiple agendas...




there is an anti-semitic agenda
there is an anti-Corbyn agenda
there is an anti-left agenda
there is an anti-Zionist agenda
there is a political opportunism within the labour party agenda...
there is a tory opportunism agenda which now (apparently) despises racism - but supports Zac Goldsmith's campaign in London...

Livingston is stupid for using such inflammatory language... I don't believe he is actually anti-semitic, though... does anyone on here believe he actually is?

[bedwetter2]

'tis a complex question with multiple agendas...




there is an anti-semitic agenda
there is an anti-Corbyn agenda
there is an anti-left agenda
there is an anti-Zionist agenda
there is a political opportunism within the labour party agenda...
there is a tory opportunism agenda which now (apparently) despises racism - but supports Zac Goldsmith's campaign in London...

Livingston is stupid for using such inflammatory language... I don't believe he is actually anti-semitic, though... does anyone on here believe he actually is?

Probably not, but he just can't help himself. The rent-a-gob nice person.

It's very nice to see the effect he is having on the Labour party driving their prospects into a further 10 years of opposition on top of the 10 years they were already going to suffer. "Progressive" policies, whatever the fcuk that means, have suffered a setback.

But we need an effective opposition. Perhaps the Greens can step into the breach, the looney b'stards......

Feel free to hurl abuse all you keepers of the Kier Hardie faith

[bobo the clown]

The pro-Palestinian rhetoric has long ago translated to anti-Israeli. The anti-Israeli has been transposed into anti-Jew more recently but probably still a good few years.

Add that to the more recent intolerance of anything the ultra-left don't agree with (see all the University bollox coming to the fore recently) .... every agenda is taken beyond reasonable limits.

Livingstone. A ridiculous man who has humour and a degree of charm, so long as you can ignore what he's actually saying and doing behind it. What the fck he thought he meant last week I have no idea, he had the chance to withdraw/reshape what he said but couldn't help dig the hole yet deeper yesterday.

I don't think he's anti-Jew per se but he has a record of daftness in that direction.

[thebish]

a record of daftness...

there (but for the grace of god)...

vote Bobo the ever-sensible!

[Prufrock]

Sure he might have said some "silly things", like when he described the holocaust as when Hitler "went mad and ended up killing six million Jews", but we've all said silly things. Like Germaine Greer. Or Tim Hunt.

Just imagine for a second there was a row about anti-Muslim attitudes in the Labour party, and John McTernan had gone on the radio and made an equivalently crass and dismissive comment about Palestine. Would we be having a conversation about whether anyone really believes McTernan is Islamaphobic? Would we balls.

He's got form too. Few years ago he got in trouble for comparing a Jewish journalist to a concentration camp guard. Just one rule, if you're talking about anti-semitism, or a Jewish problem in the left wing, just maybe stop mentioning Hitler, mkay?

[Prufrock]

I didn't hear what he alleged to have said. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is clearly absurd. However, tenable arguments could be made to suggest that Israel is a fascist state. I refer to fascism before Hitler perverted it and made the word pejorative. Not that I make that argument - I suggest only that it is tenable.

No it isn't. Israel is a free democracy. You could make an argument that Likud is a fascist party but I don't think even that holds up. Even it's not a defining characteristic of fascism, I can't think of any other fascist party that abides by the democratic process.

Right-wing, divisive, war mongering bastards, certainly, but not fascist (other than in the pejorative sense, in fact, which now means anything left wingers don't like).

[thebish]

Sure he might have said some "silly things", like when he described the holocaust as when Hitler "went mad and ended up killing six million Jews", but we've all said silly things. Like Germaine Greer. Or Tim Hunt.

Just imagine for a second there was a row about anti-Muslim attitudes in the Labour party, and John McTernan had gone on the radio and made an equivalently crass and dismissive comment about Palestine. Would we be having a conversation about whether anyone really believes McTernan is Islamaphobic? Would we balls.

He's got form too. Few years ago he got in trouble for comparing a Jewish journalist to a concentration camp guard. Just one rule, if you're talking about anti-semitism, or a Jewish problem in the left wing, just maybe stop mentioning Hitler, mkay?

hmmm.. he does have a record of opening his gob and likes to say stuff that sounds controversial.. he's a bit of a media-whore and had probably had his day - and, yes, absolutely he should apologise... but if anyone is under the misapprehension that he actually is racist or anti-semitic - then, really, he's not...

remember the GLC? and how the "right" howled derision at his insistence that the Met was institutionally racist - and how his administration was constantly and loudly painted as totally looney for championing the rights and treatment of ethnic minorities, gays, lesbians, women? seems a long time ago - but - he was doing that and standing up for ethnic minority, gay/lesbian rights and justice and condemning racism in the police LOOOOONG before it was acceptable and trendy to do so..

there IS undoubtedly anti-semitism out there - and across UK society... I think that there is a danger that in this grand-standing noise against people who aren't actually anti-semitic, the real anti-semites go about their business un-noticed. There ARE people (undoubtedly) in this furore who are genuinely concerned about anti-semitsm in the UK - and I am behind them - I stood outside in the freeeeeeeezing cold in January on Holocaust Memorial Day in Exter (my nearest synagogue) - with (not surprisingly) very FEW people...

but there are (I suspect) a lot more of the louder voices in this furore who don't really give two figs about anti-semitism in the UK and are using anti-semitism merely as a stick to beat Corbyn with (who also is not anti-semitic) - and in doing so cheapen the whole issue and dishonour those who seriously are targets of anti-semitism. (IMHO)

[Bruce Rioja]

a record of daftness...

there (but for the grace of god)...

vote Bobo the ever-sensible!

I'd vote for Bobo any day ahead of that befuddled communist wanker.

[thebish]

a record of daftness...

there (but for the grace of god)...

vote Bobo the ever-sensible!

I'd vote for Bobo any day ahead of that befuddled communist wanker.

aye - like I told you to! vote Bobo!

[Montreal Wanderer]

I didn't hear what he alleged to have said. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is clearly absurd. However, tenable arguments could be made to suggest that Israel is a fascist state. I refer to fascism before Hitler perverted it and made the word pejorative. Not that I make that argument - I suggest only that it is tenable.

No it isn't. Israel is a free democracy. You could make an argument that Likud is a fascist party but I don't think even that holds up. Even it's not a defining characteristic of fascism, I can't think of any other fascist party that abides by the democratic process.

Right-wing, divisive, war mongering bastards, certainly, but not fascist (other than in the pejorative sense, in fact, which now means anything left wingers don't like).

Yet many people make the argument. Take today's headline fromHaaretz, the Israeli daily. Or see what Israelis say in the Guardian about book burning and suppression of culture, free speech, etc. These examples are Israelis making the argument. What would their non-Jewish critics say?