The Politics Thread

[thebish]

I didn't hear what he alleged to have said. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is clearly absurd. However, tenable arguments could be made to suggest that Israel is a fascist state. I refer to fascism before Hitler perverted it and made the word pejorative. Not that I make that argument - I suggest only that it is tenable.

No it isn't. Israel is a free democracy. You could make an argument that Likud is a fascist party but I don't think even that holds up. Even it's not a defining characteristic of fascism, I can't think of any other fascist party that abides by the democratic process.

Right-wing, divisive, war mongering bastards, certainly, but not fascist (other than in the pejorative sense, in fact, which now means anything left wingers don't like).

Yet many people make the argument. Take today's headline fromHaaretz, the Israeli daily. Or see what Israelis say in the Guardian about book burning and suppression of culture, free speech, etc. These examples are Israelis making the argument. What would their non-Jewish critics say?

they are normally simply dismissed (often by non-Jews) as "self-hating Jews"...

[thebish]

this is Zac's latest newspaper mayoral advert...

an image from the 7/7 bombings to smear Sadiq Khan and the Labour Party....

this - because Khan is a muslim... blatant smear by association...

[Lord Kangana]

Yeah, but look at the anti-Semitism. Keep looking at the anti-Semitism. Don't look anywhere but the anti-Semitism.

Its almost like there's a polling day coming.

[thebish]

as an aside - but I think an interesting one - my mind goes back to that bloke who was aiming to become the first British prime minister of Jewish origin since Benjamin Disraeli... Miliband... Ed...

there are those who think that the sheer fury of the attacks on him - the "geeky" "odd" "not quite one of us" "not quite comfortable with a bacon sandwich" were in some part (not all - but in some part) - expressions of deep-seated anti-semitism...

it is said that more than 60 members of his family died in the Holocaust...

had Ken Livingstone berated a Jewish man for not being comfortable eating bacon... well... imagine!

[Lord Kangana]

Yeah, but its something he might do the lefty loony bastard.

[thebish]

Yeah, but look at the anti-Semitism. Keep looking at the anti-Semitism. Don't look anywhere but the anti-Semitism.

Its almost like there's a polling day coming.

aye - funny that - who'd have known!!

[Bruce Rioja]

this is Zac's latest newspaper mayoral advert...

an image from the 7/7 bombings to smear Sadiq Khan and the Labour Party....

this - because Khan is a muslim... blatant smear by association...

THAT didn't happen then? I'm curious.

[Lord Kangana]

That Labour is friends with terrorists?

I don't know, is it?

[bobo the clown]

a record of daftness...

there (but for the grace of god)...

vote Bobo the ever-sensible!

Which means what ?

[thebish]

a record of daftness...

there (but for the grace of god)...

vote Bobo the ever-sensible!

Which means what ?

errr. - vote for the sensible ones - the not-daft ones - like Bobo!

[thebish]

THAT didn't happen then? I'm curious.

what are you curious about?

yes - 7/7 happened - but the labour party didn't do it or support it or encourage it - nor did Sadiq Khan - and voting for Khan won't be a vote for terrorist bombings...

it's blatant smear-by-association - summat you said you entirely agreed with me was a bad thing...

[Prufrock]

I didn't hear what he alleged to have said. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is clearly absurd. However, tenable arguments could be made to suggest that Israel is a fascist state. I refer to fascism before Hitler perverted it and made the word pejorative. Not that I make that argument - I suggest only that it is tenable.

No it isn't. Israel is a free democracy. You could make an argument that Likud is a fascist party but I don't think even that holds up. Even it's not a defining characteristic of fascism, I can't think of any other fascist party that abides by the democratic process.

Right-wing, divisive, war mongering bastards, certainly, but not fascist (other than in the pejorative sense, in fact, which now means anything left wingers don't like).

Yet many people make the argument. Take today's headline fromHaaretz, the Israeli daily. Or see what Israelis say in the Guardian about book burning and suppression of culture, free speech, etc. These examples are Israelis making the argument. What would their non-Jewish critics say?

Identity politics nonsense. Haaretz is av interesting publication but has no more moral authority on defining "fascism" as the guardian does. If you read comment is free Jeremy Hunt is a fascist. Fascism has a meaning. I've yet to see it be compatible with a democracy rated similar to that of France.

Likud are vile. It doesn't make Israel a fascist state.

[Prufrock]

this is Zac's latest newspaper mayoral advert...

an image from the 7/7 bombings to smear Sadiq Khan and the Labour Party....

this - because Khan is a muslim... blatant smear by association...

I've hardly spoken about Zac because it seems like Sadiq is going to cruise it, but he really is a contemptible wanker.

If anyone hasn't seen it, him being asked who his favorite Bollywood actor is is glorious:

[Montreal Wanderer]

I didn't hear what he alleged to have said. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is clearly absurd. However, tenable arguments could be made to suggest that Israel is a fascist state. I refer to fascism before Hitler perverted it and made the word pejorative. Not that I make that argument - I suggest only that it is tenable.

No it isn't. Israel is a free democracy. You could make an argument that Likud is a fascist party but I don't think even that holds up. Even it's not a defining characteristic of fascism, I can't think of any other fascist party that abides by the democratic process.

Right-wing, divisive, war mongering bastards, certainly, but not fascist (other than in the pejorative sense, in fact, which now means anything left wingers don't like).

Yet many people make the argument. Take today's headline fromHaaretz, the Israeli daily. Or see what Israelis say in the Guardian about book burning and suppression of culture, free speech, etc. These examples are Israelis making the argument. What would their non-Jewish critics say?

Identity politics nonsense. Haaretz is av interesting publication but has no more moral authority on defining "fascism" as the guardian does. If you read comment is free Jeremy Hunt is a fascist. Fascism has a meaning. I've yet to see it be compatible with a democracy rated similar to that of France.

Likud are vile. It doesn't make Israel a fascist state.

Pru, all you are giving is assertions of your own opinions. I said tenable arguments could be made and gave you illustrations which you dismiss as nonsense. You talk about the defining characteristics of fascism. What are these? let's check Wiki.

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes in the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilian and combatant. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war.The war had resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines and providing economic production and logistics to support them, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies

Consider how many of these dictums are true of Israel. Yes, it is a democracy but probably not as liberal one. Military citizenship? Check. Reject the notion that violence is automatically negative in nature? Double check. Etc.

Personally I don't consider Israel a fascist state but I find your assertions a poor response to the sources I cited suggesting a tenable argument could be made that it was.

[BWFC_Insane]

this is Zac's latest newspaper mayoral advert...

an image from the 7/7 bombings to smear Sadiq Khan and the Labour Party....

this - because Khan is a muslim... blatant smear by association...

I've hardly spoken about Zac because it seems like Sadiq is going to cruise it, but he really is a contemptible wanker.

If anyone hasn't seen it, him being asked who his favorite Bollywood actor is is glorious:

What a tool. I love the way he frantically looks to his entourage for a suggestion then still has to go back with 'I'm not going to give you one'. Bet the interviewer is relieved!

[Worthy4England]

Aye, well he could always leg it into the nearest tap room to look totally inconspicuous and blend in with the lads.

[Prufrock]

I didn't hear what he alleged to have said. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is clearly absurd. However, tenable arguments could be made to suggest that Israel is a fascist state. I refer to fascism before Hitler perverted it and made the word pejorative. Not that I make that argument - I suggest only that it is tenable.

No it isn't. Israel is a free democracy. You could make an argument that Likud is a fascist party but I don't think even that holds up. Even it's not a defining characteristic of fascism, I can't think of any other fascist party that abides by the democratic process.

Right-wing, divisive, war mongering bastards, certainly, but not fascist (other than in the pejorative sense, in fact, which now means anything left wingers don't like).

Yet many people make the argument. Take today's headline fromHaaretz, the Israeli daily. Or see what Israelis say in the Guardian about book burning and suppression of culture, free speech, etc. These examples are Israelis making the argument. What would their non-Jewish critics say?

Identity politics nonsense. Haaretz is av interesting publication but has no more moral authority on defining "fascism" as the guardian does. If you read comment is free Jeremy Hunt is a fascist. Fascism has a meaning. I've yet to see it be compatible with a democracy rated similar to that of France.

Likud are vile. It doesn't make Israel a fascist state.

Pru, all you are giving is assertions of your own opinions. I said tenable arguments could be made and gave you illustrations which you dismiss as nonsense. You talk about the defining characteristics of fascism. What are these? let's check Wiki.

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes in the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilian and combatant. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war.The war had resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines and providing economic production and logistics to support them, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies

Consider how many of these dictums are true of Israel. Yes, it is a democracy but probably not as liberal one. Military citizenship? Check. Reject the notion that violence is automatically negative in nature? Double check. Etc.

Personally I don't consider Israel a fascist state but I find your assertions a poor response to the sources I cited suggesting a tenable argument could be made that it was.

Totalitarian one party state with an authoritarian leader such as a dictator and a martial government?

There are tenable arguments that South Korea and Cyprus are fascist states by your logic.

[bobo the clown]

Whatever Israel is it doesn't fit any description of a Fascist state.

It's a Multi Party democracy .... too multi party tbh. It's PR system is a lesson on why PR is a pile of crap when it comes to decision making. The minor ... & extreme ... parties invariably hold the balance of power and invariably abuse their position. Hence no progress on things which the majority want. But free elections happen, results vary, coalition discussions ensue and eventually a new Government is formed and the losers traipse off.

Despite it all about 20% of the population is Arab. They tend to live, study and work in their own spaces but many integrate. You can happily go from Tel Aviv to Jaffa without any semblance of being constrained. The Arab villages are welcoming. You are welcome to discuss politics and, though be prepared for an argument, be allowed contrary views without any fear.

The extreme "religious" Jewish sects are a pain in the butt and avoid conscription and the proferred alternatives and they claim to be permenantly studying. The "non-religious" (including Jews who don't let their religion dominate) are the bulk of the population. If someone choses not to believe they are not persecuted in any way. There are secular schools, 'ordinary' Jewish schools as well as the extreme Jewish schools.

There is conscription but those wishing to opt out are given the same period in social working schemes. No-one is persecuted for that but you ARE expected to fulfil one or the other (the religious, again, wriggling out of it and Arab may request exemption... & usually do).

There is a large Socialist movement as well as a Communist one and a large civil service. Union membership in public services is high. Low in private sector.

Though there are certainly things to challenge in the country, not least the continual village/settlement encroachment and their willingness to "do what is necessary to defend themselves" (which is how they refer to their defence) but to describe it as a fascist state is ludicrous.

[Bijou Bob]

Sadly, if it is a fascist state, it's one of our making, the result of a period of politics in which we took our eye off the foreign policy ball and spectacularly so.

There's an interesting dichotomy between the need for a degree of secularism and the stability that religious faith can bring to a nation state. I don't expect that to be resolved in my lifetime or that of my children.

[bobo the clown]

Sadly, if it is a fascist state, it's one of our making, the result of a period of politics in which we took our eye off the foreign policy ball and spectacularly so.

There's an interesting dichotomy between the need for a degree of secularism and the stability that religious faith can bring to a nation state. I don't expect that to be resolved in my lifetime or that of my children.

It isn't